Looking for insight into converting PM25mv to CNC

[shooter123456]

On this, are there compatibility concerns or drivers?

If you go with Mach4, you just need to make sure the motion controller your select will work with Mach4. Note that a motion controller and breakout board are not really the same thing. A breakout board just gives you easier access to the pins and usually provides opto-isolation. The motion controller will have an onboard processor that handles timing, coordinates motion, etc. Stepper drivers all (as far as I know, there could be some obscure exceptions) take step and direction signals, which any motion controller will be able to output.

Does this software have all of the jog and manual movement controls?

Yes, Mach4 will allow you to control the machine manually.

These seem to work pretty closely together as if the controller (maybe a Warp 9) is the hardware interface between the software and the motors and sensors.

With a motion controller, it is slightly more than that. Mach4 will send instructions to the motion controller, the motion controller will interpret those instructions and generate the output to the machine. This is where LinuxCNC and Mach4 are going to differ most. LinuxCNC outputs step and direction signals directly (It is the motion controller) while Mach4 would be going through a motion controller.

Controller provides the low power commands to the drive and the drive provides the power to the motors. Am I missing a breakout board here or is that commonly integral to the controller, or one in the same?

That depends on which motion controller you get. Some of them will let you easily wire directly to the drivers, others you will need to either make connectors or get a breakout board. For example, the smoothstepper has onboard parallel ports, so your options are to get a parallel port breakout board which lets you use screw terminals to wire in, or you can try to wire a parallel port connector directly to the drivers.

Where would a pendant (MPG) plug into this system and what is your opinion on the necessity of this?

That would probably plug it into your Mach4 computer via USB, but I think there are some motion controllers that you can plug into as well. Not at all required. I have always just used a keyboard, but I am sure an MPG would be helpful.

On the computer side, ethernet sounds like the way to go nowadays but my laptop has no port. I could use a USB to RJ45 converter but then have no electrical isolation (surely they make a converter with this isolation as part of it). This or go wireless?

I am not an expert on Mach4, but I think using a laptop for it isn't recommended. Maybe those problems have gone away, but I recall reading that a desktop is the way you want to go. Regarding opto-isolation, the isolation comes from the motion controller, so using a converter to connect to the motion controller wouldn't bypass the opto-isolation. I wouldn't dream of going wireless for motion control. That is just asking for problems.

Maybe it's just me but I haven't found a good tutorial which puts all these pieces of the puzzle together in one place. Perhaps when I succeed, I will do that!

I think the issue with that is the relative abundance of options vs the relatively few people that convert their own machines. General tutorials (which I have seen plenty) would be more helpful as they guide you to the point where you can continue on your own. Once you have your components selected (in my opinion, the hardest part), there are guides for everything you need to do. For example, the machine hardware kit you get will have a guide to installing it on the machine. Mach4 and ESS (if you go with those 2) will have a guide for installation/configuration and the drivers you select for the motors will have instructions on wiring. A tutorial putting it all together would have a lot of "If you used these exact parts, do this. Otherwise, reference your components manual."

 

[macardoso]

Nrpdyer,

I think you have the right idea!

are there compatibility concerns or drivers?

With Mach 4, there are not compatibility concerns beyond meeting the system requirements on the software. I am actually running a Win 10 machine that has worse specs than the minimum and it runs fine. The only thing that can mess it up is trying to rotate the 3D graphics toolpath window while the machine is running.

Does this software have all of the jog and manual movement controls?

Yes, you can jog continuously, rapid, and step from the keyboard, onscreen buttons, or MPG (I'll explain more later)

With this, I assume compatibility must be checked. It seems many controllers that I have seen are specifically developed for certain programs (such as Mach4). Also it seems there are drivers which must be used for the software to talk to the hardware.

It seems like each motion controller is designed around one control software, although there might be some that can use multiple. The drivers and installation instructions are provided by the companies which sell them. Pay attention to the step rate as this could be limiting to you depending on your motor drive selection and future expansion. 100kHz would be a bare minimum in my mind, 400kHz would be better. The SmoothStepper I am using goes up to 4MHz which is necessary for my servo setup. Also pay attention to the I/O counts.

Am I missing a breakout board here or is that commonly integral to the controller, or one in the same?

The breakout board is typically NOT included with the motion controller. It "breaks out" the pins to screw terminals or a similar method of landing wires. My first time building, I bought the most expensive breakout board thinking it would be better purely because it was fancy. This time around I went hunting for the most featureless (and cheap!) board I could find since it was more flexible.

Where would a pendant (MPG) plug into this system and what is your opinion on the necessity of this?

There are USB wired, USB wireless, and hardwired MPGs. I have never used a USB one, but I have heard they can be a little slow to respond to inputs (also I would never trust a wireless ESTOP). I purchased a $50 hardwired one and don't know how I lived without before. It makes jogging the machine so much easier. The downside of the hardwired one is that it chews up quite a few I/O points which was problematic for me because I have a LOT of I/O on my machine. I mention some stuff about it and have pictures starting at post #34 here: https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/g0704-cnc-ac-servo-rebuild-picture-heavy.76222/page-2 .

On the computer side, ethernet sounds like the way to go nowadays but my laptop has no port. I could use a USB to RJ45 converter but then have no electrical isolation (surely they make a converter with this isolation as part of it). This or go wireless? Or, converter with network cable plugged into router which would then provide isolation.

I'm 90% sure you cannot use a USB to Ethernet converter for your motion controller, but I could be wrong. There are many USB based motion controllers including a Smoothstepper. These should work fine but will have a 10' limit for communication between PC and motion controller.

Thanks again, I'm having a blast already and don't even have a machine!

That's the point!

-Mike

 

[spumco]

To further complicate things, there are other CNC controller software packages available.

I use UCCNC, and they've just released a motion controller + BOB in one board. I'm using an older controller of theirs, but the new one looks quite nice.

https://www.cnc4pc.com/axbb-e-ether...and-breakout-board-combined-controller-b.html

Before deciding on hardware, research the control software side of things first. Some questions to ask yourself:

1. Does the software have all the G-codes I want? Not every software package has everything.
2. Is it a standard G-code language or is it something strange and a custom post-processor will be required?
3. Is the software still supported, and is there a robust user community where you can get help? - everybody needs help.
4. Does it have 'nice' features, like conversational programming, spindle syncronization (rigid tapping or lathe threading), lots of work offsets, etc.
5. How about the user interface? Can you easily change it if you hate the way it looks?
6. Tool tables - is it useful? (diameter + length + comments) or is it just length?
7. Are you going to get charged for 'upgrades' like probe functions or other stuff?

Just an FYI.

-Ralph

 

[Nrpdyer]

Thanks all again for sharing your knowledge and experience.

I am waiting for my PM25mv to ship. They told me up front when I ordered that it would be a few weeks so it should be any day now.

I am currently considering going with Mach4 as it does seem to be well supported and a good user following. I haven't yet chosen which hardware I will use which is compatible with it but it looks as though there is a good number of them to choose from.

@macardoso (or any Mach4 users)
If you have any answers to any if these questions above as they relate to Mach4, I would love to hear; as answers to these type questions are often hard to ascertain without experience.

 

[macardoso]

Nrpdyer,

Assuming you are referring to @spumco questions:

1. Does the software have all the G-codes I want? Not every software package has everything.

Short answer is yes.

You'll need to read through the supported codes in the manual (https://www.machsupport.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Mach4 Mill GCode Manual.pdf). I have not really found any code that isn't included that I felt I needed. All normal motion commands are available, most canned cycles, and quite a few M-codes. As far as I know, conditional branching (IF THEN) is not supported directly in the gcode (needs to be embedded in a macro) and lots of specialty cycles aren't available, but those are usually proprietary and included in manufacturer specific controllers like Haas. You have the ability to script specific M code functions if you need something special that the software doesn't natively support. Looks like there are 75 G codes and 21 non-scripted M codes supported at this time.

Edit: Conditional G Codes are supported in Mach 4 industrial.

2. Is it a standard G-code language or is it something strange and a custom post-processor will be required?

The G-code is standard. I use MasterCam and use a default Fanuc post processor. Fusion 360 has a Mach 4 specific post processor available.

3. Is the software still supported, and is there a robust user community where you can get help? - everybody needs help.

Great communities are available at Mach Support and the Warp 9 TD website (if you buy a smoothstepper). There is support for basic setup all the way through complex scripting.

4. Does it have 'nice' features, like conversational programming, spindle syncronization (rigid tapping or lathe threading), lots of work offsets, etc.

Mach 4 is not conversational, but does include a number of "wizards" which help you program simple features without CAM. In all the years I've had Mach 3 and 4 I have never used the wizards. Get used to working quickly in CAM and you'll never need them.

Limitations: Mach 3/4 do not directly support rigid tapping. Some motion controllers offer this functionality inside the motion controller (My setup on my G0704 can do true rigid tapping). Mach 4 does not support closed loop axes through the PC although this can be done at a servo drive. Mach 4 supports only 1 coordinate system meaning you cannot run a swiss lathe (with back operations), external robotic parts loader, or similar. While Mach 4 supports up to 6 axes, it does not have machine kinematics, Tool Center Point (TCP) control, or dynamic offsets. This is fine and doesn't prevent 4/5 axis work, but makes setup a little more limited than modern high end machine tools.

All these things are really fancy features that I am not sure are supported by any hobby or entry level industrial control software. They are also rarely desired by anyone in the hobby market.

Mach 4 supports 254 work offsets.

5. How about the user interface? Can you easily change it if you hate the way it looks?

Mach 3 user interface was kinda garbage, but Mach 4 is very nice looking. The screens are fully editable although that does involve some work. Adding a couple of extra buttons is very easy and there are custom made screensets available from 3rd parties for purchase if you really hate the default one.

6. Tool tables - is it useful? (diameter + length + comments) or is it just length?

Tool tables hold up to 256 tools if I remember correctly and allow you to enter tool number, length, diameter, length wear, diameter wear, and a comment. Work offset table has plenty of room for lots of offsets, but doesn't have comments right now.

7. Are you going to get charged for 'upgrades' like probe functions or other stuff?

Probing is included in Mach 4 Hobby. There are some differences between hobby and industrial, read them here (https://www.machsupport.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Mach Version Differences_doc_a9.pdf) and buy the one right for you. No upgrades beyond that decision.

-Mike

Ps: Happy to help with anything Mach 4 on this site if you make a post about it.

 

[Nrpdyer]

Got my PM25mv a couple weeks ago! I've been silent as I have just been learning to use it as a manual machine, learning all the tools, learning how to cut some simple squares out of HDPE etc...




So now on to CNC...

If you would please have a peek at where I'm going with this and make sure I'm not making some major mistakes :

-CNC conversion kit from ArizonaVideo with double nut arrangement

From AutomationTechnology:
-X and Y axis motors Nema23 570oz 5A with cable (KL23H2100-50-4BC)
-Z axis motor Nema34 1200oz 6A with cable (KL34H2120-60-4AC)
-X and Y driver KL-5056E
-Z driver KL-8070D
-48V 12.5A switching P.S.
-5V P.S.
-SmoothStepper motion control board - Ethernet - For Mach4
-SmoothStepper C25 terminal board (opted to go with this for ease of wiring)

-Mach 4 software (purchase straight from them so licensing will be easier in the future for moving it to another computer)

-Fusion360

Decided to go with open loop steppers for cost. I'm not going to be pressed to run this thing hard / fast so not too concerned about missing steps. I'll cut my teeth with this setup since Gecko, closed loop steppers and servo setups add up quickly on the cost.

Going with SmoothStepper just because I see a lot about it in all of the forums so should be able to get good support if need be. The C25 breakout board seems a pretty reasonable price for what it is and plugs directly into the control board.

Mach 4 for the same reason as I'm going with SmoothStepper (support), although it's not free as some out there may be.

F360, same reasoning (and it's free!).

Hopefully this is a 'good' setup and all compatible. I figure buying everything from AutomationTechnology that they have already determined the compatibility of all these components (actually buying individual components to get exactly what I want and it's no more than their 'kits').

I would like to hear if people think AutomationTechnology is a good deal with good support or can I do a lot better on brand and price if I buy similar stuff elsewhere.

Motors sized right? Seems there isn't much price difference within the Nema23's (a few bucks here and there).

Good drives or is this the one everyone blows up?

From reading, stay mid range on the voltage of the motor; so the 48v seem ok?

If left to my usual devices, I will research this for the next 5 years before I commit so I just need to pull the trigger. Again, any major concerns on product / suppliers / combination of components / missing anything?

Thanks so much. This is turning out to be a fun hobby (although I still haven't figured out what I am gonna be doing with all this!).

 

[shooter123456]

CNC conversion kit from ArizonaVideo with double nut arrangement

Be aware that a lot of people are reporting long wait times and no communication even after paying for their kits from him. I would strongly consider making your own, it isn't really that tough.

From AutomationTechnology:
-X and Y axis motors Nema23 570oz 5A with cable (KL23H2100-50-4BC)
-Z axis motor Nema34 1200oz 6A with cable (KL34H2120-60-4AC)
-X and Y driver KL-5056E
-Z driver KL-8070D
-48V 12.5A switching P.S.
-5V P.S.
-SmoothStepper motion control board - Ethernet - For Mach4
-SmoothStepper C25 terminal board (opted to go with this for ease of wiring)

On mine, I was running with 400 oz in Nema 23s on the X and Y, so at 570 you should be fine. 1200 will work for the Z, but I found the speed to be surprisingly limited. It wasn't able to go any faster than my 400 oz in motors on the Z, but it had less of a tendency to struggle at lower speeds.

I have no experience with those drives, but specifications look compatible. All of those look a good bit more expensive than the stuff I was using, but that doesn't mean too much.

Power supply looks fine, though note that even with identical specs, some are better than others.

I use LinuxCNC so someone else will need to chime in about the other boards. With LinuxCNC, you just plug in a $10 break out board and head to the races. I have a hard time seeing why anyone pays for Mach4 and the other necessary hardware when LinuxCNC exists for free and works just as well. That is another story altogether though.

 

[pontiac428]

I am a believer that your electronics will determine your experience with the system. Back when I was researching, I found a lot of confused builders running into trouble with cheap china electronics, so I bought all of mine from PMDX (made in USA) and Gecko. For comms to the PC, you'll need a Parallel port (best synchronous method) or an Ethernet port (best asynchronous method) for best results. Serial and USB both work as asynch methods, but there are two voltages (TTL): standard 5v and laptop 3.3v. Those ports MUST provide 5v to work. Further, laptop chipsets have driver features allowing OS power management, so they may time out and give you other headaches. Overall, with the current offerings and limitations, the Ethernet SmoothStepper is the best way to go and ensure compatibility. My main industrial PC is a laptop. I replaced the USB drivers with universal drivers to minimize any funky junk that may have been included by the laptop manufacturer, and disabled OS power management at the driver level.

So two tips from me: Buy American and stick with Ethernet ports.

Edit: Why mixing NEMA 23 and big NEMA 34 steppers? 400 oz-in NEMA 23 should be enough. That NEMA 34 is HUGE!

 

[Nrpdyer]

So now I come across omc-stepperonline.com and it throws a wrench in the gears... I can get the closed loop steppers and drives for the same cost as the open loop from automationtechnologies. Any good or bad experiences with these? I'm doing my research to determine this on my own but again, would love some feedback if you have it. I also need to determine if it is compatible with the smoothstepper but considering the 'closed loop' is between the motor and drive, I would think the controller would be none the wiser and comms to the drive would be the same.

 

[macardoso]

I have bought the $20 cheapo stepper drives from stepperonline and had great luck with them except they did tend to die every once in a while. They were so cheap I just kept spares and could change them out in less than 5 minutes. The rest of the products I have bought from them have worked flawlessly and I hear the more expensive stepper drives are pretty rock solid. Never used their closed loop steppers