VN More VN 12 questions.

J

John TV

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I Need a bit of advice from other VN owners.

I'm still waiting on the electrical controller panel for the rotary phase converter, but while waiting I thought I might ask a few more Van Norman 12 questions.

I read the VN 12 operation and maintenance instruction manual I found on the vintage machine web site and it got me thinking.

1. I don't see any method of fully "tramming "the spindle head. The "nod" from vertical to horizontal is adjustable but I don't see any "side angle" adjustment. Sorry if I'm using the wrong terms. Am I missing something?
2. It recommends using a flushing oil to "clean" the gear boxes periodically. I'm familiar with automotive flushing such as Gunk but not familiar with machinery flushing agent. Is there a difference? What do you all use?
3. The manual recommends 30 wt oil, for almost everything. It seems heavier than most other machines. Is that what you all recommend?
4. It says to use grease or high temp grease in the rear spindle bearings using grease zerks. I don't see any "exit" or weep spots to know when you have added enough grease. Any thoughts?

Thank you for any responses and your knowledge and time.

John Minnesota



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Ps. I could not find the modern lubricant chart posted by Cal. Maybe not searching correctly.


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Hi John,

I'm an amateur in these kinds of things, but I've been poking about my VN16 for a few months trying to get a grasp on some of the same questions. Here's what I've come to:

1) The nod is the only adjustable angle on the VN head. If you needed to fine-tune the alignment in the other axis, I think you'd be into the territory of scraping machine ways (making sure the bottom dovetail of the ram was square to the face of the ram that mates with the cutter head.) To get other spindle angles, VN made some angular attachments to mount on the end of the spindle - some of which included quill feeds for drilling and so on.

My solution to this is another project (as usual) - I'm going to try to mount a Bridgeport M head to the round ram so I can get a quill and the ability to hold a cutter on an angle in the other rotational plane.

2) I don't know about flushing oils either. My very likely bad solution for cleaning out the gearbox when I got it was to run some 30wt oil mixed with a cup or two of WD-40 for a couple minutes, drain it, and then replace it with straight 30wt oil. It did clean quite a lot of gunk out of the transmission, and things have run much smoother since.

3) I use the 30wt stuff and I haven't had any adverse consequences - but then again, I'm no tribologist. The geared head is definitely a substantial device, so I don't imagine the heavier oil is overkill. It does make the table glide really nice and smoothly.

4) Looking at the drawing for the cutterhead on the VN16, it looks like the grease that goes in through the zerk fitting is exposed to the recirculating oil within the cutterhead. My best guess is that the grease dissolves into the oil over time, and leaks out with the oil that gets lost. I just pumped in the grease until it felt a bit stiffer on the grease-gun handle. I'm not sure if the VN12 is built exactly the same way, but it sounds pretty close from what you describe.

Hope that helps!

Andrew Young
 
The VN mills head only moves from horizontal to vertical. The only other way to get any other movement is with the universal subhead or the high speed subhead. Look through the posts on this forum for photos.

For gearbox cleaning, my K&T manual says to use kerosene. I have done this with ok results.

For lube, I use Mobil DTE heavy medium, which is 20 weight in the main gearbox and power feed gearbox. For the cutter head, I use a synthetic 140 weight gear oil. For the grease, any NLGI-2 grease is fine.

As for greasing the spindle bearings, a few shots is all that you will need. There is a labyrinth seal at the top and bottom of the cutter head. This seal plus the grease is what keeps the oil in the cutter head. As you add grease and run the machine, the grease will eventually work its way out around the spindle.

Jason
 
Lubrication engineering was in it's infancy in the WWII era. About the only difference in the various oils was the viscosity, now there are many complex additives available to tailor a lubricant to a particular use. Don't use automotive motor oils or hydraulic oils in a machine tool; both are engineered to work with filters and have additives that suspend debris in the oil so that the filter can remove them. You want a gear oil that lets debris settle harmlessly to the bottom to the sump, rather than keeping them in suspension where they can continue to do damage to bearings and gears.

As suggested, Mobil DTE Heavy-Medium (not to be confused with Mobil DTE 26, which is an hydraulic oil) is a good choice for the cutter-head, ram gearbox and feed gearbox. McMaster-Carr carries it for $28 a gallon (item #2158K15). Use Mobil Vactra No. 2 for the ways, including the lubrication points in the table/saddle/knee.

There were four or five different cutter-head designs used over the life of the No. 12. Some used grease in both bearings, but after 1953 the front bearing was lubricated from the center reservoir. Some cutter-heads had a labyrinth seal on the front of the spindle, some had a grease seal. Some manuals do call for SAE 30 oil, but elsewhere in Van Norman literature SAE 30 is equated to (300 SUV at 100° F), which translates to ISO 68 viscosity grade, that's about 80W SAE gear oil and near the dividing line from 20W and 30W engine oil. (Note that engine and gear oil SAE weighs are NOT the same). One manual calls for 600W oil, also known as "steam cylinder oil"; as best I can tell, that's about an ISO VG 460, which is about what SAE 140 gear oil is.

I use Mobilith SHC-100 grease for the cutter-head. "California Roll Grease" was the recommended grease for a while, but they didn't have SHC-100 as an option. Even if California Roll Grease were still available, I would use the SHC-100. You definitely do not need to squirt grease in there all the time. If you have grease coming out past a labyrinth seal, you have far too much grease in there and it's time to take the end caps off and clean out the excess. Your best bet is to lubricate the bearings once, with the end caps off so you can remove any excess grease, and then leave them alone until it's time to change the oil in the cutter-head.

Kerosene or Diesel fuel are good choices for flushing the cutter-head and gearboxes. After the kerosene, you might want to "rinse" with an inexpensive automotive transmission oil (but NOT motor oil) before putting in $28 a gallon industrial gear oil. Here's a link about cleaning and greasing the cutter-head. Again, you need to know what version of the head you're dealing with:
https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/how-to-proceed-with-12-head-cleaning.37210/#post-318889
 
Last edited:
Cal Haines said:
Lubrication engineering was in it's infancy in the WWII era. About the only difference in the various oils was the viscosity, now there are many complex additives available to tailor a lubricant to a particular use. Don't use automotive motor oils or hydraulic oils in a machine tool; both are engineered to work with filters and have additives that suspend debris in the oil so that the filter can remove them. You want a gear oil that lets debris settle harmlessly to the bottom to the sump, rather than keeping them in suspension where they can continue to do damage to bearings and gears.

As suggested, Mobil DTE Heavy-Medium (not to be confused with Mobil DTE 26, which is an hydraulic oil) is a good choice for the cutter-head, ram gearbox and feed gearbox. McMaster-Carr carries it for $28 a gallon (item #2158K15). Use Mobil Vactra No. 2 for the ways, including the lubrication points in the table/saddle/knee.

There were four or five different cutter-head designs used over the life of the No. 12. Some used grease in both bearings, but after 1953 the front bearing was lubricated from the center reservoir. Some cutter-heads had a labyrinth seal on the front of the spindle, some had a grease seal. Some manuals do call for SAE 30 oil, but elsewhere in Van Norman literature SAE 30 is equated to (300 SUV at 100° F), which translates to ISO 68 viscosity grade, that's about 80W SAE gear oil and near the dividing line from 20W and 30W engine oil. (Note that engine and gear oil SAE weighs are NOT the same). One manual calls for 600W oil, also known as "steam cylinder oil"; as best I can tell, that's about an ISO VG 460, which is about what SAE 140 gear oil is.

I use Mobilith SHC-100 grease for the cutter-head. "California Roll Grease" was the recommended grease for a while, but they didn't have SHC-100 as an option. Even if California Roll Grease were still available, I would use the SHC-100. You definitely do not need to squirt grease in there all the time. If you have grease coming out past a labyrinth seal, you have far too much grease in there and it's time to take the end caps off and clean out the excess. Your best bet is to lubricate the bearings once, with the end caps off so you can remove any excess grease, and then leave them alone until it's time to change the oil in the cutter-head.

Kerosene or Diesel fuel are good choices for flushing the cutter-head and gearboxes. After the kerosene, you might want to "rinse" with an inexpensive automotive transmission oil (but NOT motor oil) before putting in $28 a gallon industrial gear oil. Here's a link about cleaning and greasing the cutter-head. Again, you need to know what version of the head you're dealing with:
https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/how-to-proceed-with-12-head-cleaning.37210/#post-318889
Click to expand...

Thank you Andrew, Jason and Cal. Great information and guidance.

My serial number is 9970 and from the only two listed serial numbers on Vintage web site it is after 1950/51 and I only have the rear spindle bearing showing a grease zerk so most likely, from Cals info, a 1953 or there about. I tried to place the age using the motor serial number but so far that has not been helpful.

The ge motor also has grease zerks and it looks like a #2 grease is most often used from the limited reading I have done. Can I use SCH100 for the electric motor bearings too?


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With that serial number you definitely have a last generation No. 12. Your cutter-head is the same one used on the No. 16. (I worked on number 9815 and it has the No. 16 cutter-head.)

SHC-100 is a great for electric motors, that's its primary use, but be careful about over-greasing your motor. On the motor, opposite the grease fitting, you should find a plug. You need to remove the plug any time you grease the motor, otherwise excess grease gets forced out along the shaft. It can accumulate inside the motor and lead to an electrical fire. Some companies remove the grease fittings on motors and cap them to keep zealous techs from over greasing the motors. Again, you don't need to grease your motor every time you turn around. Do it once, making sure that you have fresh grease in the bearing, and leave it alone.

Here's a photo of the motor on my No. 16. You can see the plug and what happens if you DON'T remove the plug:
IMG_7047.jpg

It's a good idea to pull the motor apart, clean out any excess grease inside the case and make sure that you have fresh grease in the bearings. You don't need to pull the bearings, you can just keep pumping new grease into the bearing while rotating the shaft until every bit of old grease has been forced out. Tearing down the No. 16's motor is on my TO-DO list. Just be careful with the old wiring, you don't want to damage the insulation. So called liquid electric tape can be used to repair minor cracks, etc., in the insulation.
 
Cal Haines said:
With that serial number you definitely have a last generation No. 12. Your cutter-head is the same one used on the No. 16. (I worked on number 9815 and it has the No. 16 cutter-head.)

SHC-100 is a great for electric motors, that's its primary use, but be careful about over-greasing your motor. On the motor, opposite the grease fitting, you should find a plug. You need to remove the plug any time you grease the motor, otherwise excess grease gets forced out along the shaft. It can accumulate inside the motor and lead to an electrical fire. Some companies remove the grease fittings on motors and cap them to keep zealous techs from over greasing the motors. Again, you don't need to grease your motor every time you turn around. Do it once, making sure that you have fresh grease in the bearing, and leave it alone.

Here's a photo of the motor on my No. 16. You can see the plug and what happens if you DON'T remove the plug:
View attachment 269013

It's a good idea to pull the motor apart, clean out any excess grease inside the case and make sure that you have fresh grease in the bearings. You don't need to pull the bearings, you can just keep pumping new grease into the bearing while rotating the shaft until every bit of old grease has been forced out. Tearing down the No. 16's motor is on my TO-DO list. Just be careful with the old wiring, you don't want to damage the insulation. So called liquid electric tape can be used to repair minor cracks, etc., in the insulation.
Click to expand...

Thanks for all the specialized info Cal. Hope I don't overburden the group. The questions just keep coming. Need to get the VN powered up once the RPC panel comes. I will order the grease and get more vactra soon.


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kb3guy said:
Hi John,

I'm an amateur in these kinds of things, but I've been poking about my VN16 for a few months trying to get a grasp on some of the same questions. Here's what I've come to:

1) The nod is the only adjustable angle on the VN head. If you needed to fine-tune the alignment in the other axis, I think you'd be into the territory of scraping machine ways (making sure the bottom dovetail of the ram was square to the face of the ram that mates with the cutter head.) To get other spindle angles, VN made some angular attachments to mount on the end of the spindle - some of which included quill feeds for drilling and so on.

My solution to this is another project (as usual) - I'm going to try to mount a Bridgeport M head to the round ram so I can get a quill and the ability to hold a cutter on an angle in the other rotational plane.

2) I don't know about flushing oils either. My very likely bad solution for cleaning out the gearbox when I got it was to run some 30wt oil mixed with a cup or two of WD-40 for a couple minutes, drain it, and then replace it with straight 30wt oil. It did clean quite a lot of gunk out of the transmission, and things have run much smoother since.

3) I use the 30wt stuff and I haven't had any adverse consequences - but then again, I'm no tribologist. The geared head is definitely a substantial device, so I don't imagine the heavier oil is overkill. It does make the table glide really nice and smoothly.

4) Looking at the drawing for the cutterhead on the VN16, it looks like the grease that goes in through the zerk fitting is exposed to the recirculating oil within the cutterhead. My best guess is that the grease dissolves into the oil over time, and leaks out with the oil that gets lost. I just pumped in the grease until it felt a bit stiffer on the grease-gun handle. I'm not sure if the VN12 is built exactly the same way, but it sounds pretty close from what you describe.

Hope that helps!

Andrew Young
Click to expand...
I too am relatively new to running VNs and I also am trying to get around to mounting an M-head on mine, but the machine literally hasn't stopped being used, since I got it wired up.

As far as tramming above, I agree, you would be in machine scraping if it is out of tram.

Personally, I have been running 90w gear oil that meets the specs of/as close as possible to the recommended oil of choice from Mobil. The reason I went cheaper, is I am doing a flush a month for the next 6 months to verify oil analysis on it. I have access to oil analysis equipment at work and was looking into corrosion and wear products.

As far as being in use. I think, since I have gotten mine, it had been in vertical maybe for about 3 hours of the 80 hours I've used it. There are a few times when I've needed to punch a hole in a project, but then again I literally have a big upright right next to mine, eventually this will be fixed by installing an M head as stated above. One of the other things that I had to relearn was not to baby it. I started life running a huge Cinci at the place I learned at. I then joined the Navy and got to experience Bridgeys and Versa-mills. Both of these, take a different style of cut compared to the mill you now have. You can truly move some metal. Oh, slab millers are sometimes hard to find and personally for cost benefit, I recommend using hss cutters.

Lastly, welcome to the club.

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