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Mounting D1-3 Three jaw chuck

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rock_breaker

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#1
I have an Enco 13 X 40 lathe that hasn't seen much service and I just discovered a problem with the 3 jaw chuck that came with the lathe. I am a newby when it comes to cam lock chucks, so I didn.t pay much attention when uncrating and getting it level; the 4 jaw seems to be OK. Will check that further when it cools off this evening. (Most of my work has been between centers or 4 jaw) but when using the 3 jaw to turn down some 1" mystery metal stock the chuck came loose in the cam lock mechanism. I got it shut down without any major mishap. I checked the clearance between the chuck back plate and the camlock assembly and found the chuck will pull tight to the cam lock assembly on one lock pin but leaves about a 0.010 gap on another lock pin, actually, I believe the taper is to deep in the chuck. It is a straight back chuck so the only place to get more clearance is by facing the cam lock assembly. I did check the cam lock face. the taper on the end of the spindle and the end of spindle with a dial indicator and got less than 0.001 run out on the three surfaces.
I would certainly appreciate comments from anyone that has overcome this problem. Ican;t at this time buy a new lathe.
Ray
 

benmychree

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#2
You may be able to adjust the cam lock studs so that the cams will engage them properly.
 

ttabbal

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#3
On mine, there is a cap screw next to the stud preventing it from rotating. On the ones that are loose, remove the screw, turn the stud in a turn or two, put it back and try to lock it. It takes a couple of tries for me to get them to the correct length. You should be able to get them to have zero play but still turn the cams pretty easily.
 

Bob Korves

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#4
Benmychree is correct if the studs need adjusting. If you cannot get enough engagement for the mark on the cam to fall between the two marks on the spindle when tightening them down, try unscrewing any tight pins by one revolution. A set screw keeps the pins from rotating and must be removed to adjust the pin lengths. If a pin is too loose, the cam will go past both marks, which means the pin must be screwed in one revolution.

While you are at it, that sounds like it could also be the chuck hanging up on the spindle nose, which would keep the chuck from seating flush to the spindle face and could also keep the camlock studs from fully engaging. To be correct the chuck/back plate should be pulled down tightly to the spindle face all the way around the diameter. Check by holding a strong light behind the joint and look for light around the entire perimeter of the chuck/spindle interface. No light should be visible. All the marks on the cams must end up between the two marks on the s;indle for the chuck to be installed correctly. If you achieve all that, then the chuck is fully seating to the spindle face. Now, loosen the camlocks completely and try to remove the chuck. It should not fall free. It should take a bump from a wrist or dead blow hammer to free the chuck (or back plate) bore taper from the spindle nose taper. If the chuck does not seat when installing it, the seat is too tight and will need to be fitted to the spindle taper. If the chuck easily seats flat to the spindle face, but then falls off when the camlocks are released, then the chuck/back plate bore is too loose on the spindle nose. A loose fit will require new parts or machining the back plate or chuck. A tight fit, especially an almost good fit, can be repaired by using high spot blue, trial fitting the chuck to spindle nose, and removing metal from the high spots on the chuck or back plate, not off the spindle nose, until the fit is correct. Warning, it typically takes very little metal removal to make the fit correct, too much metal removal makes it too loose, which requires a new part or machining the chuck or back plate.

The chuck not seating against the spindle face also causes the chuck to exhibit a "wallow" runout when testing the chuck for runout. Sometimes it is even easily visible, and no good work can be done with that condition. My Kent 1340 exhibited that problem with one chuck, the other fit perfectly. The face plate also was too tight. I made them correct myself. That would probably be a warranty issue on a new lathe, but good luck with getting it reconciled easily with the seller or builder with a Chinese lathe. I can give you more help if you need it.
 
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JimDawson

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#5
You may be able to adjust the cam lock studs so that the cams will engage them properly.
What benmychree said. That is the first place to start. I would first remove all of the cam lock studs and make sure the chuck back will mate to the spindle nose. Then screw them back in to the line and try it again. The cams locks should turn to about the 4:00 o'clock position when properly tightened.

I don't know if your spindle nose is marked, but in the picture below the line on the cam socket should line up between the V and > when properly locked.

1534642073262.png

Here is a setup I did to work on the back of my junk 4 jaw on my 13x40. I had to recut the back plate mounting area. You could do something like this to your 3 jaw if needed. Fit the chuck to the spindle nose if needed, do not make any changes to the spindle.
1534642306604.png

1534642327940.png
 

aliva

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#7
The pins should have an engraved line to indicate proper threaded depth. Remove the socket head bolt beside the pin, screw the pin into or out of the chuck till the marked line is flush with chuck surface.. reinstall the socket head bolt. You may have to turn the pin till the bolt will screw in, make sure you can still see the line, don't bury it. Do this will all of the pins.
 

JimDawson

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#8
I know its off topic, but dying to know. Is that T slot actually slanted? and why?

Yes it's slanted, and no it shouldn't be. That is high quality work from the People's Chuck Factory #4 :grin: It was cheap.
 

Superburban

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#9
Yes it's slanted, and no it shouldn't be. That is high quality work from the People's Chuck Factory #4 :grin: It was cheap.
That blows my mind, Can't even imagine how they could be so far off. The chuck was hand held in the T slot cutter machine?
 

rock_breaker

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#10
ThANKS GUYS!
I now have some usable knowledge of how to adjust the cam locks. I have been all over the place from camming over to not holding at all, hopefully the indexing marks are there. I know the groove for pin depth is on all three pins. No doubt I will review these comments several times before I get it right. I will start again in the morning. The 4 jaw is doing the same thing only less clearance. I hear you about not cutting the spindle or taper. If necessary I could cut the back of the chuck but I will be back here before that happens. It is flat. The runout on the chuck is 0.020 which says a lot about the quality. That may change if I can get it mounted correctly. I am wondering if better quality chucks with three pins are available?
Thanks again and have a good day!
Ray
 

Superburban

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#11
You can download a few of the Grizzley lathe manuals. I forget which ones, but some show & tell quite well, how to align/ adjust the cams.
 

rock_breaker

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#12
Thanks Supurburbon,
Grizzly will be my next step, but I am now going to respond to the wealth of information I got yesterday. Investigation of my 3 jaw today, found a chip in one pin socket, removed same. Light test revealed space between the chuck and backing plate. Something I don't understand yet is like a tunnel of light close to the taper then dark then a band of light near the perimeter of the chuck shoulder. After chip removal I could not get a 0.006 feeler gage between the chuck and the pin holder assembly. When grooves in pins are starting to disappear the cams cannot be tightened enough to hold chuck, one revolution of each pin inward (groove in pin almost out of sight) cams seems to hold chuck but the wrench just goes solid without any feeling of cam rubbing
I believe some progress was made today.
I mis-spoke yesterday when I said the back of the chuck was flat, that is true for the 4 jaw but the 3 jaw has a slight shoulder +/- 1/16.
Thanks to everyone on this problem.
It's off to Grizzly world so have a good day
Raay
 

Bob Korves

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#13
What about the fit of your backing plate to the spindle face and taper? Looking for light between back plate and spindle face was the test I was suggesting.
 

rock_breaker

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#14
Bob
Thanks for the response, I think I performed the test you suggested but I am not using the correct terminology. I'll put it another way-- I was looking where the chuck meets the spindle. I did put a dial indicator on three places without the chuck bein mounted; the end of the spindle, about 1/2 way up the taper and the spindle face Results were less than 0.001 deflection.
There was a post about an index mark on the pin and the chuck housing; I could not find the two "V"s or the index mark on any of the pins.
A call to customer service at Grizzly did not reveal any information on adjusting Cam Lock chucks.
In looking at Grizzly's literature about South Bend Chucks and adaptor plate I see that the D1-4 chuck has 3 pins so I stand corrected on that.
Your time and consideration on this problem is certainly appreciated.
Thanks again
Ray
 

Superburban

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#15

rock_breaker

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#16
Thanks DSuperburban
 

Cadillac

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#17
If you look at the picture of the slanted t slot look closely and it looks like the whole chuck is crowned. The chuck face definately has a crown. I wonder if the whole chuck sprung after getting machined?
 

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#18

rock_breaker

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#19
Used a Dial indicator on the surfaces of the three jaw today; the diameter near the back plate is 0.004 run out, then checked the surface from the back plate to the front between the jaws it ran -0.002, 0.0 and +0.010 with the 0.010 being perpendicular to the area where there is no light viable between the spindle and the back of the chuck. I have tried mounting the chuck in the 3 positions possible with no improvement My conclusion is the back of the chuck is not true. (no kidding) LOL. Jim Dawson mounted his 4 jaw on what I think is a shaft supported by a collet at the spindle and a live center at the tailstock. A question for Jim for runout, did you use the outer perimeter of chuck and the jaws tight on a shaft or is that an arbor?
I don't have any adjustable arbors so am planning tightening the jaws on shaft that will be mounted between centers. Hopefully I can find a problem this way.
Have a good day
Ray
 

Bob Korves

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#20
Are you convinced that the back plate is seating fully against the spindle face, all the way around? I would certainly make sure that is correct before doing anything else.
 

JimDawson

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#21
A question for Jim for runout, did you use the outer perimeter of chuck and the jaws tight on a shaft or is that an arbor?

That is just a chunk of 1 inch shafting I had laying around. The jaws are clamped on the shaft and I dialed in the OD of the chuck just to get it to run more or less concentric.
 

ChrisAttebery

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#22
Here's the closest manual Grizzly had to my chinese 13x40.
G4016 Manual

BTW: I believe that the spindle and chucks should be D1-4, not D1-3.
 

Bob Korves

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#23
BTW: I believe that the spindle and chucks should be D1-4, not D1-3.
Agreed, and I did not notice that in post #1. My Chinese 13x40 "Kent USA" lathe is D1-4.
 

rock_breaker

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#24
Good evening guys,
Again thanks for the responses. To Bob Korves Light is still visible between the spindle face and the back plate with all three cam locks adjusted as recommended and the lathe spindle ran for a couple of minutes, the cam locks were still tight. I did coat the pins with oil and seemed to get a brief slipping feeling in the wrench I did try holding the chuck against the spindle face, awkward situation but I did get some light in the area of discussion. Next thing I am going to check is the back of the chuck for wobble with a dial test indicator or attempt a lever system for my 2" face dial indicator.

Jim Dawson, Thanks for explaining how you mounted your 4 jaw! I have some 1.25 bar stock and a piece if a 1.5" bolt that I think I will use for a shaft mounted between centers. Hopefully mounting as you did will let me check the runout on the back plate.

Chris Attebery, Thanks for bringing that to my attention. You would think D1-4 would mean 4 pins, but I noticed that Grizzly advertises a D1-4 mounting plate with only 3 holes. As I said earlier I stand corrected. My Enco is similar to the G4003 and I found neat information on the 13X36
ONE THING THAT I HAVEN'T MENTIONED IS THAT I TURN THE CAM LOCKS COUNTER-CLOCKWISE TO SECURE THE CHUCK . I STUCK MY PINKY IN ONE OF THE PIN HOLSE AND IT SEEMS TURNING THE CAM LOCK CLOCKWISE WOULD PUSH THE CHUCK AWAY BEFORE GOING TIGHT. This is just opposite what the instructions say for the G4016. DEFINITELY GOING BACK TO THE SHOP IN THE MORNING.
Have a good day
Ray
 

JimDawson

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#25
Jim Dawson, Thanks for explaining how you mounted your 4 jaw!
ONE THING THAT I HAVEN'T MENTIONED IS THAT I TURN THE CAM LOCKS COUNTER-CLOCKWISE TO SECURE THE CHUCK .
My pleasure to help out.

Something is not right, the cams should turn clockwise to tighten. The notch in the cam should be facing away from you when in the release position. The notch in the pin should be facing you.

1535085787238.png

1535085851198.png

1535085809595.png
 

Bob Korves

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#26
First, make sure you are actually tightening the chuck to the spindle by turning the cams. They should gradually get tighter as you turn them. Tighten each one a bit at a time until they are all tight. You do not want to force them, but they do need to be tight.

After the chuck is installed, if there is any light showing at the front spindle face, then the fit between spindle taper and back plate is not correct, the tapered opening in the back plate that the spindle taper seats against is not machined enough. Like I said in my first post, WARNING! Do not take off too much material. Fit the parts together and tighten the cams down after rubbing a very thin coat of high spot blue (Prussian blue) on the spindle taper. Then take it apart and inspect carefully for where there is contact against the taper. Get some 220 grit sandpaper and lightly sand the spots that were making contact -- only the areas where contact was made. Don't sand on the spindle, or get grit on the spindle. Try to keep the angle you are sanding the same as the spindle taper angle. Clean everything up quite well so there is no grit and nothing interfering with the fit. Try the fit again with the blueing, and check the fit at the spindle face. If there is still not complete contact, try again, and again, and again, little by little, until the cams just pull the back plate against the spindle face all the way around, no light showing. It should require very little metal removal. It should still require tapping the chuck to remove it after loosening the cams. Stop there, you are done.
 

Bob Korves

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#27
My previous post, #26, assumes that you have parts that are designed and machined to fit together properly, and are adjusted properly and the chuck is being installed correctly. I am not there to look over your shoulder...
 

Cadillac

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#28
I’m confused just figured out their two separate people talking about chuck problems. Rock breaker if you skimmed the back of the backplate than the taper will be closer to the spindle by that much you took off and the taper will also need to be cut.
I would thing you need to start at the spindle taper and work out from there. Starting with the chuck and working to the spindle is gonna give a lot of error. If your chuck surfaces are all over the place it’s gonna be hard to even align to lathe to fix. Good luck.
 

Bob Korves

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#29
I’m confused just figured out their two separate people talking about chuck problems. Rock breaker if you skimmed the back of the backplate than the taper will be closer to the spindle by that much you took off and the taper will also need to be cut.
Rock Breaker is the only one asking for help with mounting his chuck in this thread, so far...
 

Superburban

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#30
ONE THING THAT I HAVEN'T MENTIONED IS THAT I TURN THE CAM LOCKS COUNTER-CLOCKWISE TO SECURE THE CHUCK . I STUCK MY PINKY IN ONE OF THE PIN HOLSE AND IT SEEMS TURNING THE CAM LOCK CLOCKWISE WOULD PUSH THE CHUCK AWAY BEFORE GOING TIGHT. This is just opposite what the instructions say for the G4016. DEFINITELY GOING BACK TO THE SHOP IN THE MORNING.
Have a good day
Ray
It seems wrong. But by turning the cam clockwise, the backside of the cam pushes the back end of the chuck pins, inward. Do not think of the spindle cam, as pulling the chuck pins inward. I have a pic saved somewhere, that shows how they work, and then it makes sense. I'll keep looking for it.
 
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