Need a motor for a 0-16A

mariner3302

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Hey all,
I bought a really nice Gorton 0-16A recently that has a 2hp, 2 speed (1800 and 3600rpm), 440v motor on it. I have taken it to a couple electrical motor shops and they all say it can't be wired to 220v. I have looked into a phase converter and transformer option which is way to expensive. So buying a new motor makes sense to me. The technology is changing so I am also wondering about the DC motor route. Anyway, I don't know where to find a motor that will do the job. It will only be doing the occasional home shop work.
So, essentially, I don't know what I don't know so a push in the right direction would be greatly appreciated! 2020-05-20 16.03.42.jpg 2020-05-20 16.02.47.jpg 2020-05-20 15.19.52.jpg 2020-05-24 15.51.37.jpg 2020-05-07 12.50.10.jpg Motor plate.JPG s-l1600 (1).jpg s-l1600 (3).jpg s-l1600.jpg
 

Aukai

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Nice looking machine :encourage:
All I know about electricity is there is a bunch of smoke looking for a way to get out :)
 

benmychree

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My eye is drawn to the 2X4s on edge holding the machine up, at least temporarily, that could end badly.
 

Reddinr

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I guess if was my machine, for home use, I would look at what a new three phase motor and a three phase motor drive would cost. Maybe increase the horse-power some (3HP maybe?) to help with the torque at low RPM. I don't think it is a cheap option either but maybe less than a big transformer. Plus you don't have to be be around 440V which I personally would pay extra to do and you get variable speed control. The contactors inside the control box will be rated for the lower current of the higher voltage motor so you probably want to bypass those.
 

mariner3302

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Hey Red, yeah that is what I am getting at. A new motor is the way to go. What I am looking for is ideas and options since I don't know what to look for or who to call.
 

matthewsx

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Hi,

Congratulations on the new to you machine, I had a 1-22 Mastermill for a while and frequently kick myself for letting it go.

First, as John York says tend to that 2x4 situation.

Then you'll need to take the existing motor off so you can measure the bolt circle and check out how it's mounted on there. It's definitely possible to alter the way the motor mounts and if you can get an inverter duty 220v 3 phase fairly cheap it may be worth modifying the mounts to work.

Your electrical box looks nice but chances are pretty good that at least one of those contactors is shot, if not all of them being out of spec for 200v. You probably want to factor re-doing all of the electrical while your at it since my experience is contactors like yours can be problematic and aren't needed once you start changing things over to VFD's.

Bonus getting the collet set with your machine since they can be kinda tough to source if I remember correctly. You'll probably want to get an ER series chuck and just hold it with one of the bigger collets you have but that's a little ways down the road. First is setting that bad boy down on the ground and rigging some sort of gantry to pull the motor off.

John
 

Ulma Doctor

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in conceivable reality,
i would consider removing the 440v motor and see what the shaft end looks like.
the next thing to get used to is the idea of modification.
i'd start with an inverter rated 2 HP 220v 3 phase 1725 rpm 56C motor and start the plan to fabricate a footplate that matches the old motor.
the shaft of the 56C motor will most likely be short in opposition to the old motor, contemplate provision for extension.
( a turned and slotted shaft stub may be drilled/tapped for a stud, and tightened to the 56C motor shaft that has been drilled and tapped for the stud)
install motor assembly
Install and wire VFD,
program and test- adjust as necessary

you will need to make provision for the downfeed control

sounds simpler than it is, but essentially that's what needs to happen, unless you BOOST the 240 single phase most likely at your home shop, to 3 phase 440v

it is a crapshoot as to which is easier/cheaper to do
 
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Chipper5783

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You have a beautiful machine that is basically ready to go (clean and connect). The phase converter is a very handy piece of kit. Once you have the 3 phase sorted out, then there are a lot of great machines available to you. The 440V is not a big deal - wait around for a used one to show up (may be some shipping cost). There are no moving parts or electronics on a transformer, if it energizes then it is going to work fine (look for something in the 5 to 10 kVA range).

That is the approach I took, and I am really glad. I got an RPC for my first machine, soon I had 5 machines plugged in. When a 575V machine showed up, I found a good used transformer - now I have 3 machines plugged into that.

Of course you can convert to about anything imaginable (DC, single phase, 3 phase and a VFD) nearly every option has some sort of a down side. You already have a top notch drive system, sure sorting out the power will take some time/effort/$ - but then you will have an industrial class set up. With a phase converter (a few styles to choose from) and transformer the set up is extremely straight forward.

I assume that you got the machine at a good price, spend a bit more and you'll have a great machine and will have spent less money than an equivalent import machine and a better end product.

Let us know how you make out. David
 

mksj

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I tend to agree that you can put together an RPC and buy a used or NOS step up transformer, which may be the easiest and probably cost effective at the end of the day providing that the machine was fully functional on 440V. There are used/surplus step up transformers that can be picked up for very little. You have a few other subsystems/drives that would also need to be addressed, but it looks like the current machine transformer has a 230VAC single phase tap so that could be used.

I do not see the value of switching to a DC motor in this application when you could go to a 3 phase motor. I just worked with another individual that picked up a NOS 3 Hp 3 ph vector motor for $250 with shipping, but a decent 3 Hp VFD will be another $200-300, and revamping all the electrical components it is still going to get pricey. A vector motor which needs be run off a VFD will got to 5K RPM, and will maintain constant Hp down to 1750 RPM.

Other option that could use the stock motor would be a step up voltage to the VFD with a transfomer, and use a 400-480V VFD, or I recall there is a UK vendor and also out of China step up VFDs that have a voltage doubler circuit outputting 440V. This cannot be used for a power source for the mill, it would need to be hard wired directly to the motor and then adapt the current controls or separate st to trigger the VFD inputs.
 

Aukai

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I hate to beat a dead horse, but just so I know you know, 440 is a dangerous voltage. You do not need to reach,and, or touch it, you only need proximity, IT will find you with devastating results. It's great if it stays where it belongs, it's like wearing long sleeves, etc, you just need to heed the SOPs. In an industrial shop there are OSHA classes you need to take to do any work on a 440v system. Just for my piece of mind, thank you.
 

mariner3302

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Thanks Aukai, I was not aware that proximity, not direct contact, to 440 plus is all that is need to let smoke escape your brain housing group!

Yes, the mill ran smoothly and perfectly during acceptance tests when hooked to 3~, 440v.

I really appreciate all the thoughtful responses! Due to the cost of the transformer/RPC/VFD retrofitting options to keep the current motor as is, I had decided to go with a new motor but now the Vector motor sounds like what would work great! One of the things I don't know is motor size,hp, torque, and how they work together. So a motor that says it is a 1800 rpm one can go as high as 3600rpm? As for the speeds, I am perfectly happy to have the engine turn at 1800 AND 3600 rpm and not have variable speed. That gives me the stock settings which I am MORE than happy to have.. So does increasing the hp of a motor increase its torque? What horsepower would be necessary to get its current performance from a 1~, 220v? I don't really want to wait to see if I might find an inexpensive workaround. I have spent a week and a half trying to find options in this category with nothing to show for it except to know that this route, ain' it. I got the mill for $1000 and it is in wonderful shape. I am keeping it. At the same time, I am a retired Marine so costs over $500 really won't do. One of these days I am going to go to the local junkyard. They always have a big pile of motors. Maybe I will get lucky.

I read a couple articles espousing the benefits of DC motors. Constant torque from practically 0 to max rpm sounds good. The motor I have says constant torque too. So I thought someone might have comments that. It doesn't sound like an easy thing to do with the wiring et al..

Also, with a modern 220v single phase motor, I can simply mount it, attach the pulleys, and wire it up. I would put the coolant pumps and power down feed on a separate 110v line. The 4 threaded mounting ring holes are 9" when measured from on hole to another, not across the motor tho.
What do you call the motor face with the mounting as described? I need that to know it will sit right. I can use my 11" SB, like your Ulma, to turn an adapter but if I can find a motor with the lip that the bolts go through, why not. My shop is 24'x36' and I have all the capabilities for lifting moving, and the like.

So, back to sourcing the new motor. I know that there are questions I need to ask companies I contact for options. I don't know what motor "face" to ask for, for instance. The current motor is 2 speed and gives rpm from 330-12000 through the pulleys. Having never used a mill, I don't think I will be needing the higher speeds but, I hate to lose capability that is available on anything.

On edit: I knew that this motor was 3~,440v when I bought it. I also knew I would be spending dough to get it up and running at my shop. I assumed that the motor could just be rewired. Ok, well, apparently not.
 
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Liljoebrshooter

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I own a 1-22. The motor just has a flat face that could be adapted to pretty easily. I have always thought about what I will do if it ever happened to me.
Nice looking machine.

Joe
20200110_164325.jpg
 

mariner3302

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Wow, that's nice!! I have to save the picture so I can make an angle adapter like you have! I shiver at the cost to buy it... Man, I REALLY dig these machines! From what little I have learned, they are about the most precise you can get for an industrial size machine of their respective era. I like, nay, I love old iron of any kind so if it sits in the corner waiting to come back to life, then soooooo be it!!

Removing the motor is very straight forward. Disconnect the 6 power leads at the motor, take the belt off, take out the 4 alan head bolts, and lift it out.

I found an old pallet lift/stacker at the junkyard some years back. I refurbished it and got it back running. Boy, does that ever come in HANDY!
 
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mariner3302

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Will this Motor work? Or one of the ones listed below that particular ad on ebay. I don't understand the ability of motors to go over their listed rpm. Is that the slowest it can go and maintain it's torque/power rating?
 

mariner3302

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If I had this Transformer and a VFD to convert up to 3 phase, I would be able to wire it up to the box and it would work fine?
 

mariner3302

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It dawned on me that I am taking this entirely to seriously considering that this for my home use. I am not interested in 'restoring' it or doing anything that would require it to run like new. I was told once when I got my SB 11" Lathe - Just USE it!! The motor doesn't have anything to do with the accuracy that I need. It just needs to spin the spindle with speed and torque. I can measure the rpm's and write them down. I will keep the original motor, of course. So I will find something suitable and when/if I find something else later on, so be it. Putting all that money into phase conversion and transformers isn't really necessary. Nice, if I had the extra dough, but not essential.... Worst that happens is I smoke a cheap motor.
 
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markba633csi

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I would just do a simple single phase 220 volt motor swap so you can make some chips. Keep the original motor, maybe sometime later revisit the topic if you really need variable speed. You may find you don't, really
-Mark
 

matthewsx

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I would do the swap as described but unless I could get a single phase motor for free I would go with a 3 phase unit. It's not likely to be any more expensive and the cost of a VFD is fairly nominal compared to how useful being able to dial in the speed is.

John
 

Dabbler

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You can find used 2 speed 'pancake' motors with C mounts fairly regularly. I have a spare I paid 60$ for... You can get a reasonable VFD for about 200$ and you are making chips. Or find a single speed 1PH 22pV C mount motor and start making chips. Depends on what make sense for you...
 

mariner3302

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Hi, I was wondering if you thought this motor would work with an appropriate VFD for my milling machine? The motor is inverter rated and 3600rpm. Would the VFD now run the motor from very slow up to 3600rpm with constant torque? That 3600 rpm at 2hp is the highest rated speed if I used the original pancake motor. The motor is inexpensive and ships free. I would just like to choose something and get it setup. Lots of projects, so little time! haha

https://www.automationdirect.com/ad...eneral_purpose/general_purpose/mtrp-002-3bd36

Thanks
 

Dabbler

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The best you can hope for is 1/2 rated torque at 10% of rated maximum speed. On some inverter rated motors it is less, but still usable. My 2HP pancake motor gives about 1/5 rated torque at 15% maximim, but still takes a decent chip.
 
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