• We want to encourage those of you who ENJOY our site and find it USEFUL to DONATE and UPGRADE your membership from active member to donating or premium membership. If you want to know the differences in membership benefits, please visit THIS PAGE:

    https://www.hobby-machinist.com/premium/

    Donating memberships start at just $10 per year. These memberships are in fact donations that help pay our costs, and keep our site running!
    Thank you for your donation, God Bless You
  • June Project of the Month (Click "x" at right to dismiss)
[4]

Need help- Given some CNC stuff and I have NO clue

[3]
[10] Like what you see?
Click here to donate to this forum and upgrade your account!

silverforgestudio

H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
94
Likes
80
#1
Was chatting with a scrapper local to me who I buy aluminum from for casting yesterday... mentioned I wanted to "get into" CNC stuff but would have to probably build it...(Why not- I have a foundry, naievty and enough super powered ignorance to tackle anything!)

Well today he dropped off 3 boxes- said he got them from a warehouse and didnt have the heart to scrap them... And I could keep them...

Looking for help as I have NO clue what to do with these things- are they even useable?

1- Galil DMC 1580 still in the box with a mfg date of 2004

2- Two "Advanced Motion Controls" Brushless servo amplifiers

3- One "Advanced Motion Controls" Digiflex digital servo drive

I as well now am the proud owner of a box of various servos- multiple makers and sizes (I am assuming from the same place.)

SO the big question is was I just handed a CNC kit or will this thing be a Frankenstein of calamity and mis-matched thingees?

The Galil controller info says up to 8 axis control- I only know of 4... According to one auction site the Galil is $1300-$1700 USD (YIKES!) so I know its still used

Just need a bit of a hand in learning what the heck I just got- and if I need to keep, sell, hold, pass or scrap it before I go down the CNC rabbit hole...

Seriously- Any help appreciated!

Thanks in advance! Pics to follow when I get home!
 

spumco

Active Member
Active Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2016
Messages
211
Likes
157
#2
You were handed parts of a CNC kit for black-belts.

The Galil is a high-end motion controller. It can control up to 8 axes (the '8' in the 1580). It can be programmed to run 'stand-alone' as it has on-board memory, but for your proposed application it can interface with a PC and motion control software. As to 8 axis - think robotics or CNC turning centers with twin turrets and a sub-spindle. You can get to 8 or more axis pretty quickly. Here's a link to the legacy documentation:

http://www.galilmc.com/motion-controllers/prior-generation/dmc-10x0dmc-15x0#info=0

Strongly suggest you PM Jim Dawson on this forum as I believe he's written CNC software for Galil products and may have some insight as to whether that 1580 is suitable for a beginner to fiddle with.

Other stuff (amplifiers & servo motors) - need more info. See if you can find part or model numbers on anything. Make a list and throw it up here. Sometimes stuff is compatible even if they aren't the same brand - just needs fiddling. The hive mind can probably help you decipher motor and amplifier codes - but that's something you should be trying to do yourself if you want to learn "CNC" stuff. Find the MFGR on the drive or motor, and internet search the model number. Get some datasheets and print them out and stick them with each device. You'll start learning what all the Greek terms are, and it'll help later if you try to unload them on Ebay or something.

You've just inherited Bugatti parts. Sadly, you don't have a Bugatti to put them on quite yet. You may, after some consultation and soul searching, decide to sell everything to fund a solid - but simpler - CNC dingus for the moment. If you want to keep the stuff and give it a go, plan on the next couple of years hiding in the basement glued to the internet cramming your brain with everything from PID loops to linear rails to EMI shielding.

Year three is figuring out how to actually machine stuff.

Actually, what you have is a staggeringly good start to taking a perfectly good industrial CNC mill or lathe with a dead or seriously obsolete control system and retrofitting a new motion control system. Buy an old 1980's or 90's VMC with dodgy/dead electronics and cram your stuff in it.
 

JimDawson

Global Moderator
Staff member
H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
6,732
Likes
4,933
#3
You got quite a haul there. I just looked up the current price of that DMC-1580....$3995. You can actually still buy them new, but they are about 2 generations out of date (early 90's), but back in the day it was top of the line. Documentation is available for download from Galil. The PC communication with the controller is RS232 or RS422. The latest Galil software and Win7/10 might communicate with the controller, not sure about that. If not, you might have to use WinXP or earlier and the older drivers to talk to it. The older comm drivers are still available for download.

As @spumco says, look up the data sheets for the servo drives. They should be compatible with the Galil controller. Now you just need some compatible motors to run and you almost have a complete system.
 

silverforgestudio

H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
94
Likes
80
#4
You got quite a haul there. I just looked up the current price of that DMC-1580....$3995. You can actually still buy them new, but they are about 2 generations out of date (early 90's),
OK Jim- thanks- the DMC I have has a sticker that says "DMC-1580-2004"
218139-456bbb97402bf56c4b56eafb4a9d56b6.jpg IMG_20180305_204414191[1].jpg

As for the paperwork- I will be downloading a LOT it seems- HA!



You were handed parts of a CNC kit for black-belts.
Ummmm- yup... looks like I need to get it in gear or get rid of it...

suggest you PM Jim Dawson on this forum as I believe he's written CNC software for Galil products and may have some insight as to whether that 1580 is suitable for a beginner to fiddle with.
Jim jumped in thank goodness- but your suggestion was well met my friend- the "fiddle with" is right- Im not interested in lighting my hair on fire or jumping into the deep end without knowing what Im doing... or destroying it with a ham-handed hammer ummm- adjustment. (Im an analog guy trying to catch up- think Flinstones meets Jetsons')

Other stuff (amplifiers & servo motors) - need more info. See if you can find part or model numbers on anything. Make a list and throw it up here..
As for part numbers-Here is the Digital Servo Drive- https://dpk3n3gg92jwt.cloudfront.net/domains/amc/pdf/AMC_Datasheet_DQ111EE40A8BDC.pdf

IMG_20180305_204230108[1].jpg

And here is the Servo Amplifier: https://dpk3n3gg92jwt.cloudfront.net/domains/amc/pdf/AMC_Datasheet_BE25A20.pdf

IMG_20180305_204305301[1].jpg

plan on the next couple of years hiding in the basement glued to the internet cramming your brain with everything from PID loops to linear rails to EMI shielding.
Although I like the idea of having a high end controller- This I will have to seriously consider as I am trying to get multiple things done- and doesnt sound like this can be done "part-time" if I'm gonna do it- besides- the bigger question now is what IS missing and what will it cost to complete this Bugatti???

Buy an old 1980's or 90's VMC with dodgy/dead electronics and cram your stuff in it.
OK- What is a VMC?

Thanks for the help and stay tuned!

Jim- would you mind a PM or chat about the functionality and testing of this little monster?
 

Attachments

JimDawson

Global Moderator
Staff member
H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
6,732
Likes
4,933
#5
We can communicate any way you want. It might be best here, that way everybody can see the progress and hopefully this will be an educational experience for all.

I'm surprised they anybody was ordering those in 2004, they were superseded by the 20x0 series mid 90's. Must have been a replacement for an existing system. Anyway, should be a fun project learning how to make use of it.

You'll need to download the drivers for your computer, what you download depends on your operating system. Let me know what computer you are using and I'll help you through that. While you're at it may as well get the documentation also. Both the command reference and the manual. Then the first order of business is to plug it in and see if it works, takes a standard computer cord. Then get communications established, you'll need a computer with a serial port or a USB-serial adaptor. That should keep you busy for about an hour or so. :)

The drive you show should work fine, at some point you'll need a motor to connect to the drive. I need to do a little reading, but I think that drive will run either a BLDC or a brushed DC servo motor. The Galil will also run stepper motor system if you want to go that route.

This should be fun :)
 

spumco

Active Member
Active Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2016
Messages
211
Likes
157
#6
The first one appears to be a standard servo amplifier. Supplied with up to 80VDC from a power supply. 20A unit can drive a big-ish motor.

The second one, as Jim indicates, is a BLDC motor driver. Brushless DC motor (think big DC motor with a computer telling it how to spin instead of some brushes riding on a commutator)

I just happen to have a 3HP (ish) BLDC motor with a 5kRPM top end suitable for a smaller mill and no driver to go with it. Your driver indicates it can use hall sensors for commutation (timing device to make the motor spin properly) - pretty standard for BLDC motors. You decide to go down this path and I've got a spindle motor for you...

VMC - Vertical Machining Center. "CNC Mill" generally refers to, in hobby-level speak, a 3 or 4 axis mill with no major frills. A VMC refers to one of the big, professional CNC mills that have an automatic tool changer and a full enclosure, and some sort of industrial control system (Fanuc, Siemens, etc.). Hobby mills, with some exceptions, generally are controlled with a Windows or Linux PC. There are obviously exceptions to everything, but VMC means big heavy box with a powerful mill inside. Thousands of pounds, requiring 3-phase electricity.

Bigger questions:

What do you want to accomplish? Make stuff with a mill or lathe? What kind of stuff? How big, and made of what material?

Or learn about electronics and motion control?
 

JimDawson

Global Moderator
Staff member
H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
6,732
Likes
4,933
#7
Bigger questions:

What do you want to accomplish? Make stuff with a mill or lathe? What kind of stuff? How big, and made of what material?

Or learn about electronics and motion control?
Or both :grin:
 

silverforgestudio

H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
94
Likes
80
#8
We can communicate any way you want. It might be best here, that way everybody can see the progress and hopefully this will be an educational experience for all.
Thank you Jim. I may wind up parting this thing out if Im not able to handle its "robust-ness" or the learning curve so the biggest issue is testing it to see where I can learn/start from or decide its TOO much machine (Bugatti's arent made for the kiddie rides!)

The drive you show should work fine, at some point you'll need a motor to connect to the drive. I need to do a little reading, but I think that drive will run either a BLDC or a brushed DC servo motor. The Galil will also run stepper motor system if you want to go that route.
I was also given a box of servos- it was a total mix and match- Elcom was the one that stuck out... but these guys are LITTLE compared to what this Galil was supposed to be able to handle... makes me think these were in the same place- not the same machine (but I have NO idea as they were all from "Some warehouse I cleaned out" per the scrapper)

This should be fun :)
HA! It will be- I honestly thought they would be scrap (may still be if they are shorted out or dont work)... and I am always looking for a project (to go with the 30-40 OTHER projects that are around the shop)... Seriously- CNC has been an interest for me and I think this may be a good push/nudge to get it in gear. I am looking forward to this.


I just happen to have a 3HP (ish) BLDC motor with a 5kRPM top end suitable for a smaller mill and no driver to go with it. Your driver indicates it can use hall sensors for commutation (timing device to make the motor spin properly) - pretty standard for BLDC motors. You decide to go down this path and I've got a spindle motor for you...
Thanks- as this little monster grows I may take you up on that- but be advised- you're offering more Bugatti parts to a 3-year old- Let me catch up a bit and when we get to the working end (If it makes it that far) we can have that conversation... But it is DEFINITELY appreciated!



VMC - Vertical Machining Center.... VMC means big heavy box with a powerful mill inside. Thousands of pounds, requiring 3-phase electricity.
Yeah... about that.... not in my little garage- My city would LOVE to bring an inspector in when I blow the block transformer... HA! Not allowed to have 3 phase in my residental area... SAD- but true... I do have a VFD Im getting ready to learn about for a surface grinder... but no joy on the 3-phase. Im BARELY a hobby-ist (3-yr old, 2 jobs, SWMBO, Honey-do's and a demanding cat!) That being said: I love my garage time and the hobby of making things in silver and iron are fun!

Bigger questions: What do you want to accomplish?
-Im looking to learn a skillset that will put me into position to do "gig" work within 3-5 years for others (hey if youre gonna do it for yourself- may as well learn it well enough to do it for others! In all honesty I want to build a hobby and make things for folks to use.

Make stuff with a mill or lathe?
-Mill most definitely- But like all things- Im gonna have to learn those as well (Bought a Rockwell lathe that needs some love before I can play/learn/grow) and no Mill yet.

What kind of stuff?
My main hobbies: Knifemaking, Jewelry (casting and fabrication), Foundrywork (aluminum through Bronze).
-Believe it or not- carving wax models for investment casting so jewelry size... up to patterns for my foundry (largest pour to date is a 15 pound aluminum house plaque and most complex was a cored antique water-jacket for an older Farm-All) So honestly I cannot say what my MAIN goal is.... My wild ignorant mind wanted to know if it was an 8 axis couldnt that be TWO 4-axis machines? (one for small and one for large?)

How big, and made of what material?
-Materials for casting in silver are waxes- microcrystalline so not very hard- for foundry work I think Corian and plywood are my targets- Aluminum and ferrous metals for the knifemaking and wood and plastics as well.

Or learn about electronics and motion control?
I think they are BOTH part of the mix now- from my viewpoint I'm gonna have to learn a touch of both (or a LOT of both) to move down this path!

Clear as mud? HA! Hope you guys have a great day- apologies as I am off line for a few days of work (yeah- riiight, whats that!?) but be back for the weekend!
 

JimDawson

Global Moderator
Staff member
H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
6,732
Likes
4,933
#9
Thank you Jim. I may wind up parting this thing out if Im not able to handle its "robust-ness" or the learning curve so the biggest issue is testing it to see where I can learn/start from or decide its TOO much machine (Bugatti's arent made for the kiddie rides!)
It won't really be ''TOO much machine'' You'll just have the capacity to do things that the ''hobby class'' systems won't do.

I was also given a box of servos- it was a total mix and match- Elcom was the one that stuck out... but these guys are LITTLE compared to what this Galil was supposed to be able to handle... makes me think these were in the same place- not the same machine (but I have NO idea as they were all from "Some warehouse I cleaned out" per the scrapper)
We'll figure out what will work. I have used Galil motion controllers to control servos and steppers from about 40 watts up to 35 KW. It really doesn't care what it's connected to. I built a 3 axis dispensing machine a while back and you can pick up the machine and carry it off. Size is not really a factor.


HA! It will be- I honestly thought they would be scrap (may still be if they are shorted out or dont work)... and I am always looking for a project (to go with the 30-40 OTHER projects that are around the shop)... Seriously- CNC has been an interest for me and I think this may be a good push/nudge to get it in gear. I am looking forward to this.

Thanks- as this little monster grows I may take you up on that- but be advised- you're offering more Bugatti parts to a 3-year old- Let me catch up a bit and when we get to the working end (If it makes it that far) we can have that conversation... But it is DEFINITELY appreciated!
Whenever you have time to play with it.

-Mill most definitely- But like all things- Im gonna have to learn those as well (Bought a Rockwell lathe that needs some love before I can play/learn/grow) and no Mill yet.

.... My wild ignorant mind wanted to know if it was an 8 axis couldnt that be TWO 4-axis machines? (one for small and one for large?)
Theoretically you could run two different machines off of one card, might be an interesting excersize. Out in my shop I have one mill with 6 axis. But this is not as complex as it might seem. It has the normal X, Y, Z axis, plus the rotary, but add to that the spindle and the tool changer as axes. My lathe has 5 axes, X, Z, spindle, tool turret, and live tooling drive. Every motor that is connected to the controller is an axis.

-Materials for casting in silver are waxes- microcrystalline so not very hard- for foundry work I think Corian and plywood are my targets- Aluminum and ferrous metals for the knifemaking and wood and plastics as well.

I think they are BOTH part of the mix now- from my viewpoint I'm gonna have to learn a touch of both (or a LOT of both) to move down this path!

Clear as mud? HA! Hope you guys have a great day- apologies as I am off line for a few days of work (yeah- riiight, whats that!?) but be back for the weekend!
When you have time there will be a lot of help here. :)
 

Karl_T

H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2014
Messages
968
Likes
405
#10
I'll just weigh in as a second contact. I have lots of experience with all this equipment, but probably not as much as Jim. I've been doing it longer, but Jim tries harder :)) I have built five Galil based CNC controls over the last twenty years, most of the work ten + years ago. before that, lots of work with antique commercial controls and the early stepper systems.

I know Camsoft (my control) does not support this old Galil hardware, so Jim's CNC software would be the only game in town. IMHO, the Mach efforts to use Galil was a complete bust. I will say setting up galil for the first time is quite the challenge. But you end up with a control far advanced over the hobby market stuff.
 

spumco

Active Member
Active Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2016
Messages
211
Likes
157
#11
but these guys are LITTLE compared to what this Galil was supposed to be able to handle
Don't confuse 'powerful' motion controller hardware with 'powerful' motor. A powerful motion controller simply means it's very fast, accurate, and the trajectory planner is refined. i.e. smooth. Think really complicated robot moving gracefully. Lots of number crunching, but maybe that robot is only the size of a poodle.

3-phase - just because you don't have 3p piped directly to your Workshop O' Doom doesn't mean you can't have it. Digital phase converters are available that magically transform the 220VAC single phase in to sweet, sweet 3-phase 220VAC to run those quiet, powerful industrial motors and so forth. And there are variable frequency drives (VFD) that do the same thing for an individual motor. No need to panic the neighborhood busybodies thinking you're setting up a production line.

I think they are BOTH part of the mix now
Yes and no. If you sell all your Bugatti parts and buy a turn-key CNC mill, you may not have to learn so much about the electrical pixies behind the curtain. You can get to learning G-code, CAD/CAM/tools, feeds and speeds, etc.

I find this stuff interesting even if my head hurts from time to time. And learning a bit about motion control and electronics (and electrical) has saved me quite a bit of money - but it's cost me quite a bit of time. I had to, essentially, start from scratch with the entire motion control system and anything electrical on my mill before making any chips.

Learning how not to crash the machine and plow through expensive tools and vises has been delayed. My machining 'apprenticeship' has been delayed quite a bit while learning the backstage stuff, but it's also helped me diagnose and repair a couple of sick 'pro' CNC machines for friends. Win-win: they are back to making money and I now have three 20hp VMC's to play with (supervised) whenever they're idle. And there may be a dual-spindle, twin-turret, live tool, 8-axis turning center in the near future... :) The crashes are going to be EPIC.

So... while I suspect folks here are interested in helping you design & build a monster control system, don't count out the possibility of selling it and buying a smallish turn-key CNC mill and jump-starting your new hobby. No matter what you'll be learning about control systems and electronics and stuff - but maybe you can fiddle with that stuff while you're actually using a machine.
 

Boswell

Hobby Machinist since 2010
H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Messages
575
Likes
239
#12
I am one that bought a turn-key system and have not looked back. I have a background in electronics and control systems so building was an option but this way I got to jump right into learning how to make widgets instead of widget makers. Everyone seems to have there own preferences in this regard so, the only wrong answer is the one that has you doing something you don't like.
 

silverforgestudio

H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
94
Likes
80
#13
I'll just weigh in as a second contact.... Jim's CNC software would be the only game in town. IMHO, the Mach efforts to use Galil was a complete bust. I will say setting up galil for the first time is quite the challenge. But you end up with a control far advanced over the hobby market stuff.
Thank you for the chime in! Good info about setting up the Galil as well- Im not at the "mach" level yet ( I mean looking at software) so the note about that is appreciated.
-Stay tuned and thank you!


3-phase - just because you don't have 3p piped directly to your Workshop O' Doom doesn't mean you can't have it. Digital phase converters are available that magically transform the 220VAC single phase in to sweet, sweet 3-phase 220VAC to run those quiet, powerful industrial motors and so forth. And there are variable frequency drives (VFD) that do the same thing for an individual motor. No need to panic the neighborhood busybodies thinking you're setting up a production line..
-True that- I have a retired "Federal" Cop behind me who does a LOT of finger wagging and is the main reason I know my Local Fire Marshal on a first-name basis... and the reason I have a line of lovely decorative bushes and landscaping behind my house...;)


Yes and no. If you sell all your Bugatti parts and buy a turn-key CNC mill, you may not have to learn so much about the electrical pixies behind the curtain.... saved me quite a bit of money - but it's cost me quite a bit of time.... don't count out the possibility of selling it and buying a smallish turn-key CNC mill and jump-starting your new hobby..
Well I agree- and Im time rich compared to my money- and the learning is part of the fun for me. I have mulled this over hard and still am on the fence about selling vs keeping- I think once I figure out what I have left to get/scrounge/buy/acquire to make this thing work I will have a much better picture of how it can all "fit into" a decision. The other consideration is that As I couldnt afford these parts "off the shelf"- This is an opportunity to play with something (although older) that I would not be able to in my normal world.

To all helping here- I appreciate it- That being said this adventure has to have a plan... this is what Im working on. If I KEEP the stuff and go for it- I will commit to it.... If I SELL and capitalize other things in the shop- it will still be a useful journey... I have to consider what my limits are and how adept I am in learning and adapting to a LOT of new info. This "Plan" is being hashed out and hopefully will center some things for me- in the shop and with the path. But for now I am focusing on the KEEP portion as this is a place I wanted to get to in the future (It just got dropped off here a little early in my lap! HA!)

I am one that bought a turn-key system and have not looked back.... I got to jump right into learning how to make widgets instead of widget makers.... Everyone seems to have there own preferences in this regard so, the only wrong answer is the one that has you doing something you don't like.
Sage advice- thank you- Stay tuned and get a chuckle (and maybe offer a hint or two!)
 

silverforgestudio

H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
94
Likes
80
#14
So here are the motors I was given- I thought I only had one set... as I unwrapped and unpacked little scrap parts and bits and bobs- these guys were all hiding in the styrofoam nuggets and plastic baggies... I have reached out to MOOG and dug a bit on the CNC forums as a guest- the ELCOM servos have had a rough life (see spindle?/ shaft areas and overall wear) but the others dont really look like they were ever installed!

ELCOM- I have googled numerous versions of the numbers on the label- I can get NO matches- can anyone tell me what model or part number/series these are?
Elcom 1.jpg Elcom 2.jpg Elcom 3.jpg

MINNEBEA- These little guys are cute! They are all still in the box- and the stickers I figure are a clue as to the wiring- and the boxes all had "4mm .7 machine tested" hand written on them"
Minnebea Stepper 1.jpg Minnebea Stepper 2.jpg Minnebea Stepper 3.jpg

MOOG- these say DC motor- not stepper... and I do not feel the "cogging" when I spin the shaft like on the steppers- is this a different function item or a spindle (as it has a square shaft tip)??? I have reached out to MOOG and I will tell you folks (NO affiliation) these guys were awesome and down-home in speaking to me as a complete newbie to their product. The fellow in the technical dept took my info and said these were older and he would fwd me some info via email. Just cool customer service! He did NOT know if it was a spindle variant- so we shall see
Moog 1.jpg Moog 2.jpg

VEXTA- these were wrapped and I do not think have ever been opened. I was able to get schematics but Im not savvy enough to know what the info means (not yet anyway) ;)
Vexta 2Phase.jpg

TBL-S AC Servo... this hefty little thing (weighs between 4-6 pounds) and is AC- it was hiding out in the bottom of the box
TBLS AC SERVO 1.jpg TBLS AC SERVO 2.jpg

These are the items I have to play with with the other boards and controllers- Are these compatible?
In my mind Im saying... "Who is ready to find a lightening bolt to wake up the Bugatti-Frankenstein?"
 

Attachments

silverforgestudio

H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
94
Likes
80
#15
Im just gonna post what I have discovered so if someone has/is looking for the info hopefully it will be a good reference. There are quite a few items I was able to dig about in for these guys and hopefully the collective can fill in the gaps or point me in better directions if I am going off base.

ELCOM- So the top line of the data plate is the part number- only hits I received were off of an auction site- Joined the CNC Zone forums so I could dig a bit deeper- and their database has NO hits to this model. I reached out to the customer service number for Pennnmotion Pittman/Elcom... was consumed... Ahem... Acquired by Amtek... the Elcom rep I dealt with was definitely not interested in helping a little guy out- the reply I received was "these items are ranked obsolete and as such we do not supply any information" Which left me at square one- and when I replied and asked what the model/part number was his answer was "These are obsolete" a one liner email. I will be trying back.

I dont think these were any sort of CNC use- Did an online chat with an Elcom/Pittman" distributor and was told "the 5000 series DC Motors were marketed to printing and biomed application industries" The tech was supposed to fwd a catalog with the 5000 series- but it has yet to shsow up in the email.

MINBEA- These little guys are/were found in printers and from what I can gather are pretty robust offerings for their time. Found a few bits of info and one source where the schematic was listed. 1.8 deg= 200 steps/rev so not a very "fine" tuned stepper- but for a start it may be what is needed (baby steps- pardon the pun!)
-Nice thing about these is their size and adaptability to me anyway- But then again Im not exactly knowledgeable

MOOG- OK so these guys are the surprise of the bunch- the numbering system is fairly straightforward: C= NEMA size L=Length W= Windings M=Options and these models are still used fairly extensively but not in CNC environments- mostly in automation or pick/pull systems. If these are like the newer gen of the C23 series w same specs it has 250 oz/in torque but at 24V.

Vexta PH2610- These guys were found in mainly Biomedical equipment from the readings and searches- although were used quite extensively by "homebrew CNC" guys into the early 2000's... Found 3 hits in CNC Zone for them around 2010 and earlier- but they show up a LOT in medical equipment like the Bone Densimometer HOLOGIC QDR1000.

TBL-S AC SERVO So this doorstop in searches only produces multiple pages in non-english and when asked to translate... yeah... it aint pretty... I have sent a RFI to the company. the catalog images I get do not look like the same housings so I am pretty sure this is a discontinued model as well (go figure- sense a trend yet? HA!) There are several other series LIKE the TBL-S but nothing schematic wise in my googly searches.

So it looks like these were from an automation or biomed or printer repair facility with a government contract- the other bits and bobs from the box contents were "Milspec" order and replacement parts and repair tag info.

Although these are not "CNC" specific- they meet the steeper motor requirement and in some cases (the Minbea hit from CNC Zone) one or more folks have used them in that capacity.

Now my question has changed into not WHAT can I build- but CAN these be used to build...?

If the answer is yes- My logic says next step is testing and verifying everything works and picking the best parts to move forward with.... Please let me know if Im at least headed in the right direction!

My gut says go with the MOOG (1st choice for large router build) the Vexta (1st choice for small wax milling unit) and the Minbea are the backups with the Elcom group as sacrifices to the experimentation bench and as slave motors.

Please weigh in and hope all have a great weekend!
 

JimDawson

Global Moderator
Staff member
H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
6,732
Likes
4,933
#16
You have really done your homework. :encourage:

I'm going to have to do a bit of research, but for building a small CNC the VEXTA motors might be the best, you can use those with a standard micro-stepping drive. The ELCOM motors might run with your servo amps, but not sure of the specs.
 

silverforgestudio

H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
94
Likes
80
#17
Thanks Jim- Like Spumco said- Ill be learning for a long time to get the "angry pixies" to dance in the right order... The Vexta seem to be the "best" option for now as well as the Moogs are actually servos not steppers:

Here is the MOOG spec from the actual schematic the fellow sent-
MOOG SNIP.JPG

So I think the "Servo" versus "Stepper" argument eliminated the MOOG from the build as it would seem to add a host of other variables. Im literally reading and learning on the fly here so please bear with me while these things sink-in and are processed...

Here is the best argument Pro/Con list for servo/stepper that I have found so far and it was very revealing to see the difference: LEGACYCNCWOODWORKING- SERVO vs STEPPER

So the MOOGs are gonna be used for another project possibly... someday... maybe...
 

silverforgestudio

H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
94
Likes
80
#18
I am separating the postings as I don't want to confuse one topic from the next

This note is about considerations for building with the Vexta's as the stepper.

Gantry weight and overall machine build- for any use with metals the gantry, frame and rails need to be fairly robust or at least rigid enough to resist twist and deflection and resistance from the materials being cut. I do not think (please correct me if I am wrong) the Vexta steppers would be served well on a machine for aluminum and wood-carving as they will rapidly be stressed pushing through denser/harder/more resistant materials.

This being said- the Vexta series would seem to be perfect for a small wax-carving setup. I imagine my platen to be 16x18 inches (workable space). My difficulty there is a lack of a 4th axis stepper- so finding if the Minbea or one of the Elcom would be appropriate there may assist.

The next consideration I am encountering is the ball-screw, rail or belt drive for a build. Anyone have an opinion or thoughts? Pros/Cons?

Thanks in advvance and I hope all are having a great Saturday night- the wife gave me the night off so Im grubbing through a host of CNC links!

Be safe folks!
 

Boswell

Hobby Machinist since 2010
H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Messages
575
Likes
239
#19
so what is it that you want to cut? Wood, Aluminum, Steel, Plastic? A gantry system that might use belts to move the head around would be a mess for Steel.
What kind of accuracy do you want to hold. Many people on this forum would likely think that plus or minus .001" would be the minimum accuracy to metal work. It would probably be overkill for wood (but I don't really know). Ball Screws seem to be the best for reducing backlash and that needed to maintain tight tolerances in CNC systems. I am sure more people will jump in here but how you answer these two questions will determine a lot of what choices to make. BTW, are you thinking of building the structure or buying a manual Mill and converting it?
 

silverforgestudio

H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
94
Likes
80
#20
@Boswell- So to answer your questions- I want to cut waxes and patterns for investment casting with a smaller mill... and I have dreams of a larger mill (think X-carve or Shapeoko) for doing wood/aluminum.

This adventure wasn't really a part of the plan initially so its been a good exercise in scrounging for information and seeing what is really out there. I still am UN-familiar with things like expected tolerances and what is considered a "tight" machine so pardon my ignorance a bit as this is added to the learning curve.

In wax- I want to carve things like belt buckles and other pattern items- but am fast realizing I will need a 4th axis. So detail work and tighter tolerances. I may be getting too ambitious there as well as the Vexta steppers Im not sure how "smooth" of an arc they can carve (the Vexta are 1.8 degree and I do not think they can half-step... so that may be a bit rough for resolution in smaller spaces/carvings)

The larger mill would be for patternmaking for greensand castings as well as things like plates and jig building for other hobbbies. The larger option will be on the back burner as my little motor cache has good chops for a bit of push and pull... but not enough muscle to grind through harder (more resistive) materials.

The limitations of the size of the steppers and now the understanding I've got a few servos instead of steppers limits my build.

And I plan on building the structure- I have a foundry and capability to do some machine work- and with a smaller unit it may be just a big enough project to not overwhelm the real-estate on my bench.
 

JimDawson

Global Moderator
Staff member
H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
6,732
Likes
4,933
#21
It still looks like the Vexta steppers might be the most useful, given that any data seems to be unavailable for the Elcom motors. Most steppers are 1.8° motors, the microstepping is done in the stepper drive, the motor just does what it's told. The problem is that you did not get any stepper drives in your box of goodies, but the good news is that they can be bought inexpensively on Ebay.

Given their size and current, I'm going to guess around 280 oz/in. These should be able to run a large table top machine at reasonable resolutions and speeds. Now are you going to push a 1/2'' bit through aluminum with them?..... No, but for the work that you describe above they would work fine.
 

silverforgestudio

H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
94
Likes
80
#22
It still looks like the Vexta steppers might be the most useful, given that any data seems to be unavailable for the Elcom motors. Most steppers are 1.8° motors, the microstepping is done in the stepper drive, the motor just does what it's told. The problem is that you did not get any stepper drives in your box of goodies, but the good news is that they can be bought inexpensively on Ebay..
Good to know- And as for the Elcom motors- Im going to be following up with the distributor Monday about the catalog. For the drivers- with these steppers being... (ahem) "vintage".... would that be an issue? I am assuming not as there are no software components to the "Working" bits- just the pulses that push/turn the shaft... but there again I am assuming.

Given their size and current, I'm going to guess around 280 oz/in. These should be able to run a large table top machine at reasonable resolutions and speeds. Now are you going to push a 1/2'' bit through aluminum with them?..... No, but for the work that you describe above they would work fine.
Here is a pic of a buckle like I am looking to do in wax- Not this exact buckle- but along these lines:
Buckle image.jpg

Hope this helps- Funny enough sidenote: Cleaned out part of my shed yesterday and found 20 pounds of Everdur Bronze casting grain... I brought it in the shop and put it under the caster and the box where the motors are sitting... the project pile grows... I think the first casting will be a buckle or a few bronze tokens!
 

spumco

Active Member
Active Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2016
Messages
211
Likes
157
#23
but there again I am assuming.
You're assuming right.

If you want to check everything you'll need to do some bench testing:

1. Stepper motor
2. Stepper drive
3. Power supply
4. Step/direction generator.

Buy a stepper drive on ebay or where-ever. You want a bi-polar and the max amps should be higher than the Vextra motors. I don't recommend buying anything 'nice' or brand name just for some simple bench testing. You're only buying one drive for now - you can buy a nice set of 3 or a Gecko 540 later.

Once you have a stepper drive picked out, you need a power supply for the drive/motor combo. I think, for now, a 48VDC with enough amps to exceed the drive rating would be fine
.
Unless someone else has a better idea, I think the below PS will work fine. The price difference between a 'throw-away' power supply and something that can drive all three (or 4) stepper drives is negligible.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/480W-48V10...256023?hash=item5b44adaa97:g:BVwAAOSwcedananZ

Or this one, which for a few bucks more can (eventually) drive the steppers faster (not more grunt, but higher top speed).

https://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/switching-power-supply/72v8a/

Finally, you need a step-direction generator. You could use an arduino or other single-board computer, or buy an ethernet/USB motion controller since your home/laptop computer probably doesn't have a parallel port. However, other folks with more experience may be able to provide a cheaper apparatus for simple bench testing.

You may also need a 5/12/24vdc power supply to provide power to a breakout board or other item - but this depends on what you're using to generate step/direction signals.

Oh, and some wire. Wire helps connect everything.

Once you have all the bits & stuff, we'll help you cobble it up and see if the motors move.
 

JimDawson

Global Moderator
Staff member
H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2014
Messages
6,732
Likes
4,933
#24
Finally, you need a step-direction generator. You could use an arduino or other single-board computer, or buy an ethernet/USB motion controller since your home/laptop computer probably doesn't have a parallel port. However, other folks with more experience may be able to provide a cheaper apparatus for simple bench testing.
Or just use the Galil board to generate the steps. That's one of its primary functions ;)
 

spumco

Active Member
Active Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2016
Messages
211
Likes
157
#25
That's cheating. How is he going to feel productive without actually buying something? :)
 

silverforgestudio

H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
94
Likes
80
#26
That's cheating. How is he going to feel productive without actually buying something? :)
Bought the breadboard today- think I went overkill- oh well... got one with a LOT of holes- and I've watched a few youtube videos on setting one up- clear as mud... Guys Im telling you I am literally "learning as I go" here. I already have a thousand projects after visiting the electronic supply store... a NEW toy store... WOW! Now I have to learn this stuff! HA!

Power supply is on the way as well- I have a DC power supply as well from an etching setup that I think may work- I will be diggin it out this week!

As for buying stuff... evidently you've never met my wife... She's a great gal and supports my hobbies as long as they arent ripping into the house fund, bills or budget so I can definitely say I wont be spending the $$$ on a turnkey CNC if I can build this cheaper! (And- fun fact- she's in accounting- so YES- this project has a spreadsheet already...)
 

silverforgestudio

H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
94
Likes
80
#27
Now on to PRODUCTIVE postings from the ignorant one (me)... I discovered GlobalSpec has DATASHEETS for a myriad of motors- and I am trying to find my older motors on there so stay tuned!

Just for reference- here is the link to the Motion DC motor database on GlobalSpec: https://datasheets.globalspec.com/ds/54

I hope the rest of the week meets everyone with good longer days and you guys are gearing up for garden season!
 

Boswell

Hobby Machinist since 2010
H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2014
Messages
575
Likes
239
#28
Welcome to the wonderful world of electronics :)
 

silverforgestudio

H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
94
Likes
80
#29
UPDATE... Breaking News! This is NOT a dead thread!

HA! OK folks- the switching power supply has been ordered- apologies for taking a week+ to get my update out... I purchased the "72V/8A Switching CNC Power Supply (110VAC/220VAC )" as It was recommended...

In other news- I am still looking for my DC power supply after cleaning out the storage unit and organizing the garage I cant seem to find anything!

As well I am looking to the next few weeks being fun indeed- I have cleared a space on the bench for this project to live and grow- and working a few extra shifts at work to buy some goodies as I go as well.

The wife is pleased and understands Im NOT buying a Bugatti right now... WHEW- that was a whirlwind conversation! Her perception of what I had and my ability to explain its a learning process Im undertaking was NOT on the same frequency... She is actually interested in learning a bit along the way so this may wind up being our new Movie Night (I know we are wierd... but hey- its works for us!)

So please be patient- I am still working on the bricks to build this!
 

silverforgestudio

H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
H-M Supporter - Sustaining Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2015
Messages
94
Likes
80
#30
Todays posting will be on the motor data sheets for the Minebea and the Vexta As these are the target steppers. I have located sheets for what I believe is the right year and model and now need to know what the data means...

FIRST UP THE MINEBEA!

MinbeaSpec.JPG MinbeaSpec2.JPG

OK so these 2 images were ripped from a catalog I found and all the specs and dimensions and wiring colors match. The only thing I am NOT finding is the variant notations on the stepper- the Number on the stepper is "23LM-C355-P6V"

That "-P6V" on the end of the number... any clues as to the reason/need for it?!?

What are the numbers I need to start focusing on is the FIRST order of business- Need to jump in the pool but dont know where to start

So I am understanding you normally run a stepper at 10-20x the "rated voltage"... So does the Amperage compound as well or are these threshold values for movement/motion/work?

Thanks for the input and now, on with the show!
 
[6]
[5] [7]
Top