[How do I?] Need some help reversing a motor

Maddogmech1

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I didn’t want to hijack someone else’s thread so started a new one. I’m no stranger to messing around with electric motors, but have more experience with 3ph, and dc, which is not helping here.

I acquired a nice unit out of a scrap bin, it’s a single phase, 1hp, hazardous location motor. A.L. Claret is the manufacturer (France). I have a need to run the motor opposite it’s current rotation. Done some reading the past couple nights and it’s sounds easy enough, reverse the polarity of the start winding. Problem is, there are two capacitors wired into this motor, along with some kind of sensor/switch in the bottom under the centrifugal switch (guessing thermal overload switch). So before I go swapping wires around and burning something up, I figured I’d get some opinions from you fine people. IMG_4395.JPG58363166712__EDF9BA95-1616-459D-BFF4-DEAB19A745A4.JPG

I won’t need to change direction of the motor as it’s running a saw, so just need to permanently change direction.


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fixit

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The nameplate normally explains how to reverse. Is there a nameplate?
 

markba633csi

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This is a WAG but on the left side picture showing the 5 wires, I believe swapping the black and white would reverse it- I could be wrong
Do all those white wires from the caps end up joining together as they enter the motor housing? If you could draw up a sketch of the cap/start switch wiring it would help
Mark
ps I worked with a french guy for years, their engineering is "unique":rolleyes:
pss if you swap the run winding that will also reverse it- possibly blue and brown?
 
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Maddogmech1

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This is a WAG but on the left side picture showing the 5 wires, I believe swapping the black and white would reverse it- I could be wrong
Do all those white wires from the caps end up joining together as they enter the motor housing? If you could draw up a sketch of the cap/start switch wiring it would help
Mark
ps I worked with a french guy for years, their engineering is "unique":rolleyes:
pss if you swap the run winding that will also reverse it- possibly blue and brown?
Totally agree on French design, I have several French made machines at work and they always have quite strange ways of doing things. Anyway, here’s my “drawing” lol, obviously I’ve never been to electrician schoolIMG_4399.JPG


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markba633csi

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Good drawing. It looks like a toughie, the winding you need access to is inside the "rotor" circle and not easily accessed. Are you willing to either open up the motor further and/or do some testing with a ohmmeter? You would need a meter that has a low ohms range like X1 or similar- even a cheap Radio Shack one would suffice probably
Let me do a quick sketch, give me a sec...
 
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Maddogmech1

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Good drawing. It looks like a toughie, the winding you need access to is inside the "rotor" circle and not easily accessed. Are you willing to either open up the motor further and/or do some testing with a ohmmeter? You would need a meter that has a low ohms range like X1 or similar- even a cheap Radio Shack one would suffice probably
No problems there, I’ve had this motor torn down completely already as the shaft was bent when I got it, had to press back straight. Let me know what info you need, I will meter things out tomorrow after work.

I do appreciate the help


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markba633csi

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Here is what I believe you have:
Your mission, if you decide to accept it, is to locate and swap either the run or start winding ends.
(I'm not sure about the brown and green from the thermal button, you may find the brown may go to the run and green to the caps) but the run and start windings are surely tied together and you need to separate them. You may not even need a meter to do this.
Claretmot.jpeg
(The centrifugal switch is normally closed when the motor is at rest)
 
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Maddogmech1

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Did some quick metering on this motor, disconnected all wires that come out of the stator when doing so. They all seem to be connected internally, and I get a reading of 3-4.8 ohms between all wires. Going off your sketch, I’m guessing the start and main windings are connected within the stator? Does this mean I need to remove the stator from the case to separate the two circuits? I’m not sure that’s possible without messing up the windings.


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Maddogmech1

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Basically I’d need to follow the blue wire (common) back to where the two windings connect to it, break it there and bring out a new wire. Then I’d need to reconnect the blue wire if I left it connected to the main, the new wire would be connect to the start winding, I’d need to connect that wire to the start cap and then swap the start wire to the start cap to the common post on the terminal block. Think I got that right?


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markba633csi

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Yes you need to locate the junction of the two windings where they connect to the blue (if that's actually how they connect, and I think they do) and break the start winding end free, then splice on a new wire, say orange. Then swap: orange to the capacitors and white back to blue + run winding
Use the meter to help identify the windings if necessary- don't add the new wire to the run winding by mistake
 
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markba633csi

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Hopefully you won't have to dig too deep into the stator to find the junction point, you may have to remove some insulating tubing or fish paper to reach it
 

Maddogmech1

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This thing is turning into a real mess. I’ve had some time to play with the wiring and gotten no farther on it. See pic, turns out the blue wire AND brown wires were both tied together in the stator windings, I’ve separated the blue and brought out a new wire, but that’s gotten me nowhere. So now I dug out the Browns, and they are tied together, I’m not understanding why. Doesn’t appear to be a simple start/run winding set?
 

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markba633csi

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It seems like they did some switcheroo there with the wire colors- I suspected it would not match my sketch
Can you identify the two windings using the continuity test? Start with that white lead, that should be one end of the start winding. Find the other end of that guy now that you have all the wires separated. Verify you don't have continuity with any other wires. Once you have id'd the start winding then the rest will go more easily
 
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markba633csi

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How low of a resistance range does your meter measure? Do you have a RX1 range?
 

Maddogmech1

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My meter low ohm range is 200.

I have continuity between white,green and blue.
Also between the browns and the blue. The blue is the wire I separated, so originally that was one single blue wire.

I’ll try to explain it different. The hot side wire comes in and goes into the thermal switch, from there it splits to the green and one of the brown wires that goes into the windings. That brown wire is spliced in the stator and the other brown wire comes back out from it to the top of the 40uf capacitor, and also the the 200uf capacitor (terminal on the top of the 40 is a double spade, both sides, the capacitors are in series) the white wire comes out of the stator and goes into the cent switch, and from there through the capacitors. The blue wire(s) go to the common side of the wall plug
 

markba633csi

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OK my sketch is totally off. Disregard it. We've got a french puzzle LOL
Let me cogitate for a while, try to figger this out
4 ohms in parallel with 2.5 is about 1.5 ohms, so that measurement looks like both windings in parallel
The higher one is usually the start one, but this is a french design- sigh
 

Maddogmech1

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Sorry for the trouble, I really didn’t think this would be as confusing as it’s turned out to be. But now it’s more of a “need to understand it” thing. Well that and the fact I’ve spent 3 days machining the parts to make this motor work on the saw so don’t want to start over lol
 

markba633csi

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I hear you. Ok, so according to the measurements the white and green should be the start winding, but is there a path to any of the other wires from white and green? I'm not clear how white and green relates to brown and blue cuz my sketch is out the window- I have a feeling just swapping white and green won't work/ will cause a short
The 5 wires coming out of the stator is confusing me. I wonder if the motor in fact was wound for dual voltage and they simply wired it internally for 120?
That would indicate two run windings + one start winding
 

Maddogmech1

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Now that makes sense now that you mention it. Since the blue AND brown wires are spliced in the stator.

I did some messing around earlier today and disconnected what I thought was the start winding, put my drill on running clockwise on the fan (target direction) and plugged it in. When I yanked the drill off, the motor continued to run, but appeared to be slower and noisy. I unplugged it quickly.
 

markba633csi

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Nooo, we can't do 220 yet, 110 is still not clear enough to me. If white and green are "standing alone" then you just swap them and it should reverse. If you measure continuity from them to anything else, you can't- there will be blood. It seems that white is shared so you can't. The WHITE needs to be separated
 
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Maddogmech1

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That’s where I’m at. And why it’s a tough one. I do feel better that it’s not something simple and I just can’t see it.
 

markba633csi

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Going back to post 16: you say the blue and both browns from the rotor symbol (post 7) were tied together in the stator?
Like this: ?
StatorF1.jpeg
 
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markba633csi

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1) Did you take those resistance measurements before you separated the blue and browns or after?
2) Does your meter read zero when probes are shorted together? How did you measure the 1.5 ohm in post 21?
3) With blue and browns separated, do you get the same 4 ohm and 2.5 ohm readings between grn and wht and blue and wht? What do you measure between blue and green?
4) The thermal button is disconnected correct?

I'm just trying to put some stakes in the ground here, bear with me
 
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