OK, I've posted before about buying a Mill and have run the gambit between Mini to old iron and have finally settled on a PM of some stripe. I've been saving for sometime now and have ~ $2000 to apply to a Mill purchase + minimal tooling to get started. NOW there's a prospect of "free" money coming from the Govt. which potentially increases my funds to over $3000. My question is this: (bare in mind that I'm looking for my WANTS, not my NEEDS) Is there much to be gained by buying a PM30 over a PM25?
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Now They've Done it
- Thread starter Capt45
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I don't really have an answer for you on the PM30 vs. the PM25.
But I want to warn other responders to this thread to keep it on the subject of machines. As much as I would like to comment on the our current national situation, I'm not doing so in the H-M forum. Please no politics.
But I want to warn other responders to this thread to keep it on the subject of machines. As much as I would like to comment on the our current national situation, I'm not doing so in the H-M forum. Please no politics.
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Size, power, weight and required power (120 or 240v)
PM25 is table 7x27, 19" X, 7" Y, 13" Z, 50-2500rpm (2 speed ranges), weight 330lbs, 1hp 120v
PM30 is table 8x33, 23" X, 8-3/4" Y, 14" Z, 50-3000rpm (2 speed ranges), weight 605lbs, 2hp, 240v, +$700
PM25 is table 7x27, 19" X, 7" Y, 13" Z, 50-2500rpm (2 speed ranges), weight 330lbs, 1hp 120v
PM30 is table 8x33, 23" X, 8-3/4" Y, 14" Z, 50-3000rpm (2 speed ranges), weight 605lbs, 2hp, 240v, +$700
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Hi Capt:
Should be qualified a bit. You qualified your question a bit by stating that the mill purchase is a "want", not a need - so buy what you want.
DavidR8's advise is certainly correct - to a point. If you don't have power, space or machine moving abilities for a larger machine, then obviously bigger and heavier is not better, if you can't use it.
If space, power, weight are no issue for you - then a bigger machine is certainly more capable. This statement is still valid only up to a point. I have two manual mills:
- the smaller is an odd ball multi function tool room mill (called a "die sinker"). It is a very nice machine, extremely adaptable, but the movements / work envelop is pretty small (slightly smaller than the PM25 but 7x the weight).
- the larger is a regular knee mill, 10x48 table and has all the standard features / options that these were sold with - weight is ~#2700.
My larger mill is significantly easier to use than the small one, since the movements are a decent size - so the set ups are simpler. While I see it as substantial piece of metal - it really is NOT a "big" mill - it is about the smallest mill that Cinci made.
Yes, there is much to be gained. The PM30 will give you significantly more capability than the PM25. They are both small machines, but if your projects (with vise and spindle tooling) will fit in the work envelop - then you will be fine. Lots of good work has been done on PM25/30 sized machines.
Should be qualified a bit. You qualified your question a bit by stating that the mill purchase is a "want", not a need - so buy what you want.
DavidR8's advise is certainly correct - to a point. If you don't have power, space or machine moving abilities for a larger machine, then obviously bigger and heavier is not better, if you can't use it.
If space, power, weight are no issue for you - then a bigger machine is certainly more capable. This statement is still valid only up to a point. I have two manual mills:
- the smaller is an odd ball multi function tool room mill (called a "die sinker"). It is a very nice machine, extremely adaptable, but the movements / work envelop is pretty small (slightly smaller than the PM25 but 7x the weight).
- the larger is a regular knee mill, 10x48 table and has all the standard features / options that these were sold with - weight is ~#2700.
My larger mill is significantly easier to use than the small one, since the movements are a decent size - so the set ups are simpler. While I see it as substantial piece of metal - it really is NOT a "big" mill - it is about the smallest mill that Cinci made.
Yes, there is much to be gained. The PM30 will give you significantly more capability than the PM25. They are both small machines, but if your projects (with vise and spindle tooling) will fit in the work envelop - then you will be fine. Lots of good work has been done on PM25/30 sized machines.
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@Capt45 I used to have a Grizzly G0731 mill and sold it to go larger. The short spindle to column distance, and the lack of a moving ram made it impossible to do those 'just a little bigger' projects, and made using a tap wrench very difficult. The sale and re-buy was quite costly, so from my experience the perfect hobby machine is thePM935 or similar.
Here's why: the ram , rotate and nod functions lets you mill at any angle with a reasonable setup, and you can use a larger vise on a smaller machine. I own 3 vertical mills at present: a 9X49 BP clone from 1989, a 7X42 BP clone from 1983, and a 2009 PM 935 (supplied by another vendor)... If you can afford it, have the space and power (needs 20A220V), then that is a sweet spot. It is unlikely that you will need to go bigger.
The rationale to not go with a tiny mill is that they are flimsy enough to break small cutters if you aren't super careful and make using larger tooling such as the 300 series carbide insert types, well - difficult. weight adds rigidity, and the 935 has a 'real' milling head. It also uses R8 tooling, which is common, sturdy, and readily available. Mills with MT3 spindles leave a lot to be desired, when compared to R8. Most of the guys in my town that started with the tiny mills use them as drill presses and upgraded to a bigger one. Hey if you have the money....
What I'm saying is that a larger mill, if you can afford it, is much more forgiving. An expert can use the smaller milling machines well, but they are much harder to learn on.
Here's why: the ram , rotate and nod functions lets you mill at any angle with a reasonable setup, and you can use a larger vise on a smaller machine. I own 3 vertical mills at present: a 9X49 BP clone from 1989, a 7X42 BP clone from 1983, and a 2009 PM 935 (supplied by another vendor)... If you can afford it, have the space and power (needs 20A220V), then that is a sweet spot. It is unlikely that you will need to go bigger.
The rationale to not go with a tiny mill is that they are flimsy enough to break small cutters if you aren't super careful and make using larger tooling such as the 300 series carbide insert types, well - difficult. weight adds rigidity, and the 935 has a 'real' milling head. It also uses R8 tooling, which is common, sturdy, and readily available. Mills with MT3 spindles leave a lot to be desired, when compared to R8. Most of the guys in my town that started with the tiny mills use them as drill presses and upgraded to a bigger one. Hey if you have the money....
What I'm saying is that a larger mill, if you can afford it, is much more forgiving. An expert can use the smaller milling machines well, but they are much harder to learn on.