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Older Leblond Model 21

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Deerslayer

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#1
I hope I am posting this in right area and not stepping on any toes, search didn't reveal a lot for me on this?

Looking for any insight into this massive chunk of American made iron.
What year made?
Is gear box on top after thought and how do you shift gearing?
Recomended motor hp?
Parts available?
Tool post needed?
Possible morse taper size of other taper?
Good, bad and need to know for it?


image.jpeg
 

Chipper5783

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#2
I hope I am posting this in right area and not stepping on any toes, search didn't reveal a lot for me on this?

Looking for any insight into this massive chunk of American made iron.
What year made?
Is gear box on top after thought and how do you shift gearing?
Recomended motor hp?
Parts available?
Tool post needed?
Possible morse taper size of other taper?
Good, bad and need to know for it?
[/ATTACH]
That is one fine looking lump of metal - show it off some more. More pictures and the full story of how it came to you.
Motor power needs? Do you have any power constraints with the location you are going to operate this? How large is your electrical supply? Look at other 21"ish machines and look for a motor that size.

Parts? Some will be available from the industrial supply houses (bolts, some drive components). All other parts are also available - you just have to make them yourself!

Toolpost? This really isn't very fussy. Obviously a good sized tool post is better. Careful you don't break the bank - larger tooling gets expensive in a hurry (not many hobby folks buying it). Consider getting something that would perhaps be a bit small, but still perform well (do you really need to take a 0.5" depth of cut at 0.015"/rev in strong material?). An equivalent to an Aloris CA would probably be fine - still a pretty good sized lump of metal.

Tapers? Don't believe any literature or comments here. Measure them yourself

Keep us all informed of your progress. David
 

Deerslayer

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#3
That is one fine looking lump of metal - show it off some more. More pictures and the full story of how it came to you.
Motor power needs? Do you have any power constraints with the location you are going to operate this? How large is your electrical supply? Look at other 21"ish machines and look for a motor that size.

Parts? Some will be available from the industrial supply houses (bolts, some drive components). All other parts are also available - you just have to make them yourself!

Toolpost? This really isn't very fussy. Obviously a good sized tool post is better. Careful you don't break the bank - larger tooling gets expensive in a hurry (not many hobby folks buying it). Consider getting something that would perhaps be a bit small, but still perform well (do you really need to take a 0.5" depth of cut at 0.015"/rev in strong material?). An equivalent to an Aloris CA would probably be fine - still a pretty good sized lump of metal.

Tapers? Don't believe any literature or comments here. Measure them yourself

Keep us all informed of your progress. David



I guess I should mention that I don't need anywhere near that much swing most the time. I guess I could chuck a tire and use the ways with a tire iron, in all seriousness I will prolly never test its limits. Most of what I intend to turn and the reason I'm buying it is pins and bushings for my backhoe. Pins and bushings are so expensive yet so simple, so I decided I would buy a lathe and make them myself and believe it or not the lathe is cheaper. Of course after its in the shop there will always be a reason to turn something (not sure how to insert a grin here)
Honestly just looking to equip with simple tooling I think? I'm thinking 1/2" and 3/8" hss tools maybe some carbide if the old girl will spin quick enough? Also a Jacobs in the tail stock (3/4 jaws would be nice)

Here's a few more photos. As you can see it's still on the trailer in these photos. It's still on the the other guys trailer until this rain subsides and the ground freezes we don't want to move it. It's in out of the weather of course.

image.jpeg image.jpeg
 

Chipper5783

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#4
Thank you, that's better - nice pictures. I like that your "new" machine isn't crazy long. Sure, it is a big machine, but if you aren't doing pump shafts, prop shafts, long hyd. cylinder work - then this will really fit the bill with out taking up a lot of shop space.
The spindle hole is going to be a bit small - compared to 21" lathes you would buy today. That is not a big deal, first of all you can use the bed length with the steady rest to work longer larger diameter work and secondly, there are always going to be projects too large for whatever lathe you have (go with what you have and be thankful).

I'm sure you are already looking around for tooling. You may be able to find used tooling fairly reasonably priced, since the home hobby folks are not looking for that (they usually don't look for anything over 1". Speaking for myself).

You'll be able to run carbide just fine on that machine. Carbide still works at low speed, you just don't get some of the benefits it offers. I'm learning to use some new carbide inserts - you can go with crazy high surface speeds and if the set up is solid, a good sized cut and fast feed - without coolant. Really pile up the chips.

As far as the drive, I have a similar set up on my small lathe - except it was factory build and is located down in the headstock leg:
  • head stock is direct / back gear
  • intermediate gear box is hi/lo with internal clutches so I can shift on the fly (great for threading to a shoulder)
  • 3 speed motor - each speed having its' own contactor and interlock (again, switch on the fly)
This little lathe is over 50 years old but this speed change arrangement works great. With VFD's now, you could set that up to be a sweet machine.
I don't know if your upper gear box is a factory offering (I suspect not), but it may still work well as part of the future drive arrangement (the belts etc. look a bit scary - you'll fix that).

I know that is a big lump of metal (some would say ugly lump of metal - but not here in this audience) and the chains will not hurt it. Still, see if you can do your rigging and tie down with web or straps. Wouldn't want to scratch the paint!

Show us pictures when you get it in the shop.
 

BGHansen

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#5
Google Leblond lathe and hit Tony's machine tool site. He has pictures posted of a 25" LeBlond Heavy Duty lathe that looks a lot like yours including the unique "V" on the bed. He notes it as a 1921 lathe but there are pictures of similar lathes dated as "pre-WWII".

Bruce
 

FOMOGO

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#6
Makes my heart go pitter - pat. Beautiful old machine, and it comes with all the really necessary/expensive bits, three and four jaw chucks, center rest, etc.. I'm thinking the upper gear box has to be a retrofit when it was changed to electric motor drive. The other pulley's on the spindle which are now made redundant by the gear box would have provided speed changes from a common overhead shaft. At a glance, looks not to have been abused, and for your intended use it will be more than capable. I have some pin and bushing work to do on my hoe also. Cheers, Mike
 

dfletch

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#7
Unless my eyes deceive me it appears the head stock, compound, and tail stock all have riser blocks under them. This was sometimes done to increase swing for a one time job rather than buy another lathe. If not done precisely never ending alignment problems will drive you nuts. I'd remove them.
 

Deerslayer

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#8
Thank you, that's better - nice pictures. I like that your "new" machine isn't crazy long. Sure, it is a big machine, but if you aren't doing pump shafts, prop shafts, long hyd. cylinder work - then this will really fit the bill with out taking up a lot of shop space.
The spindle hole is going to be a bit small - compared to 21" lathes you would buy today. That is not a big deal, first of all you can use the bed length with the steady rest to work longer larger diameter work and secondly, there are always going to be projects too large for whatever lathe you have (go with what you have and be thankful).

I'm sure you are already looking around for tooling. You may be able to find used tooling fairly reasonably priced, since the home hobby folks are not looking for that (they usually don't look for anything over 1". Speaking for myself).

You'll be able to run carbide just fine on that machine. Carbide still works at low speed, you just don't get some of the benefits it offers. I'm learning to use some new carbide inserts - you can go with crazy high surface speeds and if the set up is solid, a good sized cut and fast feed - without coolant. Really pile up the chips.

As far as the drive, I have a similar set up on my small lathe - except it was factory build and is located down in the headstock leg:
  • head stock is direct / back gear
  • intermediate gear box is hi/lo with internal clutches so I can shift on the fly (great for threading to a shoulder)
  • 3 speed motor - each speed having its' own contactor and interlock (again, switch on the fly)
This little lathe is over 50 years old but this speed change arrangement works great. With VFD's now, you could set that up to be a sweet machine.
I don't know if your upper gear box is a factory offering (I suspect not), but it may still work well as part of the future drive arrangement (the belts etc. look a bit scary - you'll fix that).

I know that is a big lump of metal (some would say ugly lump of metal - but not here in this audience) and the chains will not hurt it. Still, see if you can do your rigging and tie down with web or straps. Wouldn't want to scratch the paint!

Show us pictures when you get it in the shop.

Is there a VFD setup for dummies course? Variable speed would be awesome
 

Deerslayer

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#9
Unless my eyes deceive me it appears the head stock, compound, and tail stock all have riser blocks under them. This was sometimes done to increase swing for a one time job rather than buy another lathe. If not done precisely never ending alignment problems will drive you nuts. I'd remove them.
I will look closer at it after I get it in shop?
I see what looks like a 1/2 block under headstock and possibly 2" under tail stock? Can't see how that would work?
 

BGHansen

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#10
Photo from Tony's site (http://www.lathes.co.uk/leblond/) is below of a 25" lathe. Looks like dfletch is correct about the riser blocks. The bottom edge of "HEAVY DUTY" on the 25" lathe pictured below lines right up with the top of the bed. Looks like yours is setting higher to the bed. Looks like the back side head stock cover fits higher to the QCGB than in the picture below.

upload_2015-12-29_20-9-55.png
 

Deerslayer

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#11
Photo from Tony's site (http://www.lathes.co.uk/leblond/) is below of a 25" lathe. Looks like dfletch is correct about the riser blocks. The bottom edge of "HEAVY DUTY" on the 25" lathe pictured below lines right up with the top of the bed. Looks like yours is setting higher to the bed. Looks like the back side head stock cover fits higher to the QCGB than in the picture below.

View attachment 118017
I see it now!
The reason the head stock looks lower than tail stock is th way is covering part of spacer.
 

Chipper5783

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#12
Perhaps the spacers are good, and away you go. Perhaps the spacers have not been done well, and you can take them out and all you'll be left with is a 21" LeBLOND HEAVY DUTY lathe. No way to lose here. Expecting lots of pictures.
 

Silverbullet

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#13
I wouldn't go removing those blocks unless your really sure someone added them the tail stock looks factory to me if you can see the extra 2" piece is the locking block to hold it on the lathe. I admit the headstock looks ro be not mounted right but look it over good to see if the vee cuts line up or not ? still you've got one really nice machine there , I bet it will take a ten hp motor and never let ya down .it might need bigger but it shouldn't need more then ten. the way the gear box is on it will help keep it from slowing down any cut you need to make. wish I had a nice one like that many times my little Logan could be turned on your lathe .
 

Tony Wells

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#14
Looks like a slug spacer under the compound too.

That lathe reminds me (and brings a tear to my eye) of an old American machine tool 20 x 40 I had. Looked a lot like that LeBlond, even down to the gearbox, which on mine was shop made. Noisy as all getout, but gave me 4 speeds! I should have put a VFD on it, but I'm not too sure I could have afforded one at the time, that was a long time ago. Might not have even been making practical VFD's. Mine had a 10hp motor (still have that). Here is a flyer on it. I wish I had it in original shape, but it had been "modernized" a bit. http://vintagemachinery.org/pubs/1004/3604.pdf


Seeing the risers on it makes me think of a lathe that I can't recall the maker of, but was bad about just blocking everything up to get more swing. I never cared for that practice. It was an Italian machine IIRC. Around 30" swing (with blocks). On that one, it was factory, so there was not a good way to bring it down to where it should be more rigid. It always seemed to be limber, but may have been my imagination at work because of the blocking.
 

Deerslayer

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#15
Maybe I'll apply the ain't broke don't fix method?
Soon ad I get it in shop I definitely want to look closer though!
For motor hp, I am thinking a 2-3 hp should make it go round for most my needs? I can't really foresee spinning any large diameter parts, and if I do it has some pretty low gears.

Now about the VFD for these things?
 

Tony Wells

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#16
HP? It depends. If you have 3 phase, I'd put a 5 on it. Otherwise, yes, a little smaller unless you have a honest need for the power.

Although VFD's sound great, I don't have one on a single one of my machines. I guess I just learned without them, and have no problems not having them. That's on manual machines, of course. They are integral with CNC. Lots of people on the Forum have bought a variety of them and have successfully installed them. If you know even basic electric work you should be able to do it. There are quite a few threads showing how it has been done, and many experienced people to guide you if needed. I'm just not one of them. My only experience with them is with ~100 HP 7 stage centrifugal pumps and such.
 

Deerslayer

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#17
HP? It depends. If you have 3 phase, I'd put a 5 on it. Otherwise, yes, a little smaller unless you have a honest need for the power.

Although VFD's sound great, I don't have one on a single one of my machines. I guess I just learned without them, and have no problems not having them. That's on manual machines, of course. They are integral with CNC. Lots of people on the Forum have bought a variety of them and have successfully installed them. If you know even basic electric work you should be able to do it. There are quite a few threads showing how it has been done, and many experienced people to guide you if needed. I'm just not one of them. My only experience with them is with ~100 HP 7 stage centrifugal pumps and such.
Unfortunately I only have single phase available. My experience with VFD AC is limited but I remember constant voltage and vary the HZ, however I don't have the slightest idea how to do it on a budget.
 

Tony Wells

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#18
You might want to start a new thread in the electrical subforum about it. We have qualified people to tell you what your options are, $$wise.
 

wa5cab

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#19
Not intending to hi-jack the thread but re the PDF of the American lathe that Tony posted, what is a "Draw-in" and a "Relieving" attachment?

Personally, I would first make sure that the headstock and tailstock actually originally fit the bed. If so, I would remove the rather crude looking obviously shop built spacer blocks under the headstock and tailstock. Only question is that there are in one of the photos two V's in the bottom of the headstock casting and none visible in the spacer block.

I agree that the top-mounted gearbox appears to be part of a conversion from overhead drive shaft to individual electric motor drive.

On motor horsepower, the only Leblond catalog that we have is much newer (I would guess 60's) but it shows a 10 HP on a 19" and a 15 HP on a 24 (that is actually a 26"). The largest 1740 RPM 230 Volt Single Phase motor I found in the Grainger catalog was 10 HP, with a full load ampere rating of 43 Amps! And it cost over $1400. I would put the practical limit on a typical residential 120/240 volt service at about 5 HP.
 

Deerslayer

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#20
Not intending to hi-jack the thread but re the PDF of the American lathe that Tony posted, what is a "Draw-in" and a "Relieving" attachment?

Personally, I would first make sure that the headstock and tailstock actually originally fit the bed. If so, I would remove the rather crude looking obviously shop built spacer blocks under the headstock and tailstock. Only question is that there are in one of the photos two V's in the bottom of the headstock casting and none visible in the spacer block.

I agree that the top-mounted gearbox appears to be part of a conversion from overhead drive shaft to individual electric motor drive.

On motor horsepower, the only Leblond catalog that we have is much newer (I would guess 60's) but it shows a 10 HP on a 19" and a 15 HP on a 24 (that is actually a 26"). The largest 1740 RPM 230 Volt Single Phase motor I found in the Grainger catalog was 10 HP, with a full load ampere rating of 43 Amps! And it cost over $1400. I would put the practical limit on a typical residential 120/240 volt service at about 5 HP.
I have a separate 200 amp service to my barn/shop so theoretically I could run a 10 hp motor with no issue. However I don't see ever needing it on a basis that would justify the expense.
I need to start a thread in electrical forum when I get home today and figure out my options before I go shopping for motors.

Anyone know how to turn off email notifications, lol I like this Place but I don't need an email for every response.
 

Tony Wells

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#21
Robert, it provides a cam operation of the cross slide, giving the ability to do form reliefs as found on hobbs, taps, mill cutters, etc. Or internally as well. I believe the description is found on pages 5 and 6 of that PDF. I didn't have that attachment with mine. I'd probably have the lathe still if it was on it.
 

wa5cab

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#22
I
Anyone know how to turn off email notifications, lol I like this Place but I don't need an email for every response.
Deerslayer,

Go to the top of any Forum screen and hover your mouse pointer over your User ID. Without clicking, slide the pointer down in the dropdown that appears, and click on Preferences. While you are in your Profile area, look around. There may be other defaults that you would prefer to change as well.
 

wa5cab

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#23
Tony,

So "Draw In and Relieving" is all one attachment?
 

Tony Wells

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#24
Yes, it's a special compound that has the ability to slide in and out per the shaft drive from the left that you see in the pic. It's not "heavy duty" per their notes, and the regular compound should be used unless you need to "draw in" or move the tool towards spindle centerline. You could use it to cut a semi Higbee cut, for example, in addition to relieving cutters. All depends on the cam profile you select.
 

Deerslayer

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#25
Deerslayer,

Go to the top of any Forum screen and hover your mouse pointer over your User ID. Without clicking, slide the pointer down in the dropdown that appears, and click on Preferences. While you are in your Profile area, look around. There may be other defaults that you would prefer to change as well.
I did that yesterday.
Lol aparantly hitting save changes is kinda important.
Hopefully I got er now
 

Deerslayer

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#26
Yes, it's a special compound that has the ability to slide in and out per the shaft drive from the left that you see in the pic. It's not "heavy duty" per their notes, and the regular compound should be used unless you need to "draw in" or move the tool towards spindle centerline. You could use it to cut a semi Higbee cut, for example, in addition to relieving cutters. All depends on the cam profile you select.
I am lost as to what ya all are referring to?
 

Tony Wells

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#27
We, uh.......sorta got off track from your LeBlond. Forgive the hijack, please.
 

Deerslayer

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#28
We, uh.......sorta got off track from your LeBlond. Forgive the hijack, please.

No worries what so ever.
I was just trying to figure out what I missed.
Carry on off track is fine by me!!
 

Deerslayer

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#29
Ok got it in the shop today.
It's about all my 580 super L wanted to pick it up!! I guess 7000++

Pictures will be coming soon

image.jpeg
 
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