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wrmiller

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#1
I've been conversing with Paul, the Operations Manager at Charter Oak, and am cautiously optimistic about these machines if they are indeed inspected and upgraded like he says.

Bill
 

countryguy

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#2
Are you considering one of these? I had them in my radar for a bit, but went used in the end. I am sure you know of the precision Mathews line as well? Anyway. Keep us tuned! Thanks for the info. CG
 

zmotorsports

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Are you considering one of those Bill? I did read in their specs that the RF45 clone of theirs does have a considerable more Y-axis travel than any of the others.

I could be wrong, but I thought I remembered reading somewhere that you were looking at stepping up to the smaller knee mill of PM's, the 935. Maybe I am mistaken though.

Mike.
 

wrmiller

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#4
Hey Mike,

I love the idea of the 935, but then I start thinking about how big it is, how much it weighs, etc.. What if I have to move it?

Anyway, the Oak Automation mill has a really nice table size and Y axis travel. And the 3hp VFD is really cool. But...it's still a Chinese mill though... Don't worry, I still have a couple of years to figure this out. :D

Bill
 

Ray C

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Hey Mike,

I love the idea of the 935, but then I start thinking about how big it is, how much it weighs, etc.. What if I have to move it?

Anyway, the Oak Automation mill has a really nice table size and Y axis travel. And the 3hp VFD is really cool. But...it's still a Chinese mill though... Don't worry, I still have a couple of years to figure this out. :D

Bill

Guys,

Have a look at these... Ask questions and I'll tell you what I can answer... The are the 932/45 Taiwanese units I mentioned before. We've had these under wraps for a while and "Da Man" says it's time to talk about them. The people of this list will have a first crack at them. Matt is unable to take questions about these so, please... don't call him... He's really focused on shipping the 1340's and next week, the 932 and 935's...



IPhone Pics 10-10-13 251.JPG IPhone Pics 10-10-13 253.JPG IPhone Pics 10-10-13 254.JPG IPhone Pics 10-10-13 255.JPG


Ray

IPhone Pics 10-10-13 251.JPG IPhone Pics 10-10-13 253.JPG IPhone Pics 10-10-13 254.JPG IPhone Pics 10-10-13 255.JPG
 

chuckorlando

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#6
For what it's worth, it aint that hard to move a bridgeport alone. The easy thing to do is rent a set of machine jacks for 40 bucks and just jack it up and roll it. I just used a engine lift to set it on pipes and a come along to pull it. I'm just saying, dont miss out on what you want when there are ways around them. Or you could build some machine jacks, but renting is so cheap
Hey Mike,

I love the idea of the 935, but then I start thinking about how big it is, how much it weighs, etc.. What if I have to move it?

Anyway, the Oak Automation mill has a really nice table size and Y axis travel. And the 3hp VFD is really cool. But...it's still a Chinese mill though... Don't worry, I still have a couple of years to figure this out. :D

Bill
 

zmotorsports

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That looks like a sweet unit Ray.

Just our of curiosity how about some specs. Motor size, XYZ travel, etc.

Mike.
 

wrmiller

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That looks like a sweet unit Ray.

Just our of curiosity how about some specs. Motor size, XYZ travel, etc.

Mike.
Yea...what he said! :)

Bill
 

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#9
This is subject to update once we receive it and verify but, here's what we have so far. I believe the X-table travel distance is incorrect but this is the info I received.


2HP
50-2500 RPM
R8 Spindle
16mm table slots
5" Spindle travel
Table travel 11.4" x 16.1"
Weight (without base) 890 lbs.


We've ordered only 10 of these for inspection and sale.


Ray
 

wrmiller

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#10
I guess I'll add another machine to the decision matrix. I await you impressions. :)

Bill
 

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Guys,

Have a look at these... Ask questions and I'll tell you what I can answer... The are the 932/45 Taiwanese units I mentioned before. We've had these under wraps for a while and "Da Man" says it's time to talk about them. The people of this list will have a first crack at them. Matt is unable to take questions about these so, please... don't call him... He's really focused on shipping the 1340's and next week, the 932 and 935's...


Ray
Wow. Look at the size of that Y base and the stoutness of the column and it's joint to the Y base. This looks like what I have been looking for as far as base and column stoutness goes.

What I have been wanting is a much smaller manual version of the Milltronics RH-20 I bought when I owned a machine shop. Having the ability to easily add x axis power feed would be a plus.

These are made in Tiawan? Please nail down the spindle and motor info. 2 hp is fine. You could probably put 5 hp through that machine. I would like to see some speeds at least into the the high 2000 rpms and preferably into the lower to mid 3000's.

There looks to be one in the background that has an even heavier base on it.
 

Ray C

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Wow. Look at the size of that Y base and the stoutness of the column and it's joint to the Y base. This looks like what I have been looking for as far as base and column stoutness goes.

What I have been wanting is a much smaller manual version of the Milltronics RH-20 I bought when I owned a machine shop. Having the ability to easily add x axis power feed would be a plus.

These are made in Tiawan? Any info on motor power and spindle speeds? 1.5 hp is okay, 3 hp is better. You could probably put 5 hp through that machine. I would like to see some speeds at least into the the high 2000 rpms and preferably into the lower to mid 3000's.
Please see posts #5 and #9 for answers to all your questions.


Ray
 

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Please see posts #5 and #9 for answers to all your questions.


Ray
Just saw it. But please look again at my post, I edited it. There looks to be a slightly heavier machine in the background.
 

wrmiller

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#14
The machine in the first pic is not the same, i.e., smaller then the machine in pictures 2-4. The larger machine has significantly larger base, column and more Y axis travel. That's the machine that caught my eye.

Ray will give us the real scoop once Matt gets the machines in house. That's what I'm waiting for. :)

Bill
 

Ray C

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The machine in the first pic is not the same, i.e., smaller then the machine in pictures 2-4. The larger machine has significantly larger base, column and more Y axis travel. That's the machine that caught my eye.

Ray will give us the real scoop once Matt gets the machines in house. That's what I'm waiting for. :)

Bill
We will not likely carry the larger machine in the photo as, both in terms of weight and cost, it's on-par with the 935 mill we already carry. Actually, the cost of that larger mill is slightly higher than the 935 and weighs just a couple hundred pounds less. The 935 is a more versatile machine in terms of swings and movement. FWIW, the 935 is the largest unit in it's class that can still be delivered with a liftgate truck. -Anything heavier and you'll need a dock or fork lift to offload it.


Ray
 

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The machine in the first pic is not the same, i.e., smaller then the machine in pictures 2-4. The larger machine has significantly larger base, column and more Y axis travel. That's the machine that caught my eye.

Ray will give us the real scoop once Matt gets the machines in house. That's what I'm waiting for. :)

Bill
I see three different machines.

1. That really big one in the background of pics 1&2 that apparently won't be imported.
2. The one in the first picture where the base bolts mount to the top of the base.
3. The one in pictures 2-4 where there are a total of 6 base mounting bolts in pidgeon holes. The column to base joint also looks much more stout than the machine in pic 1. The top of the column is sort of rounded and it appears that the column may be wider than on the machine in pic 1, although photos can fool you sometimes due to lens effects. The column also appears to be deeper in the Y direction if you look at the position of the z axis handwheel.

I am certainly interested in the machine in pictures 2 thru 4 and am looking forward to the details and pricing to be published once PM has a chance to look them over.

I understand the marketing strategy outlined with regards to the big machine that won't be imported, but I personally believe that the basic bed mill design of the big machine in the background is much more suited to a CNC application and most manual applications than a knee mill. Knee mills waste an incredible amount of cast iron to provide the ram, knee, tilt, and other features designed for flexibiltiy that rarely get used. There is also a lot more machining and parts required which raise production expense of the machine. Bed mills lose the knee, lose the tilt, lose the ram. Consequently, the bed mill uses the cast iron available more efficiently to construct the base and column of the machine. You can set up special work holding and/or fixturing to approximate a portion of the tilt and ram operational flexibility provided by the knee mill. I owned a machine shop for 20 years and we never once moved the ram from it's normal orientation. Really, the bed mill is the more appropriate mill for the vast majority of machine functions and the knee mill should be more of a specialty machine.

With a bed mill, the base and the column are essentially one component that is much more rigid than the movable knee of a knee mill. A bed mill is far simpler to build and machine with fewer components than the knee mill.

The last machine I bought for my machine shop was a Lagun knee mill to replace the worn out Johnford knee mill we had. I really didn't want a knee mill, I wanted a smaller manual version of the CNC Milltronics RH bed mill we had but I never found such a machine to exist. The bed mill's rigidity, and suitability for large box ways made it a much more durable and capable machine that would have suited our needs much better than the head tilting flexibility of the knee mill that we never used.
 

Ray C

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#17
I see three different machines.

1. That really big one in the background of pics 1&2 that apparently won't be imported.
2. The one in the first picture where the base bolts mount to the top of the base.
3. The one in pictures 2-4 where there are a total of 6 base mounting bolts in pidgeon holes. The column to base joint also looks much more stout than the machine in pic 1. The top of the column is sort of rounded and it appears that the column may be wider than on the machine in pic 1, although photos can fool you sometimes due to lens effects. The column also appears to be deeper in the Y direction if you look at the position of the z axis handwheel.

I am certainly interested in the machine in pictures 2 thru 4 and am looking forward to the details and pricing to be published once PM has a chance to look them over.

I understand the marketing strategy outlined with regards to the big machine that won't be imported, but I personally believe that the basic bed mill design of the big machine in the background is much more suited to a CNC application and most manual applications than a knee mill. Knee mills waste an incredible amount of cast iron to provide the ram, knee, tilt, and other features designed for flexibiltiy that rarely get used. There is also a lot more machining and parts required which raise production expense of the machine. Bed mills lose the knee, lose the tilt, lose the ram. Consequently, the bed mill uses the cast iron available more efficiently to construct the base and column of the machine. You can set up special work holding and/or fixturing to approximate a portion of the tilt and ram operational flexibility provided by the knee mill. I owned a machine shop for 20 years and we never once moved the ram from it's normal orientation. Really, the bed mill is the more appropriate mill for the vast majority of machine functions and the knee mill should be more of a specialty machine.

With a bed mill, the base and the column are essentially one component that is much more rigid than the movable knee of a knee mill. A bed mill is far simpler to build and machine with fewer components than the knee mill.

The last machine I bought for my machine shop was a Lagun knee mill to replace the worn out Johnford knee mill we had. I really didn't want a knee mill, I wanted a smaller manual version of the CNC Milltronics RH bed mill we had but I never found one. The bed mill's rigidity, and suitability for large box ways made it a much more durable and capable machine that would have suited our needs much better than the head tilting flexibility of the knee mill that we never used.
There are no divisive marketing strategies involved in what machines we decide to stock. We can special order virtually any machine a person wishes to have but, payment will be required up-front. Also, Matt does not easily change the relationships he's established with his vendors and furthermore, if we stocked both models, there would be a respective decrease in both quantities -with an ensuing price increase due quantity discount loss. This would further complicate an already difficult supply-chain situation.

The photos were intended to show a general class of machine and corresponding workmanship, fit-and-finish thereof. The specifications of the first 10 machines we ordered were given in a previous post. Sadly, I do not know what picture corresponds to that machine. It was also decided to give the folks on this list a view "behind the scenes" of where and how these machines are produced purely for your edification. When we get the machines, we'll take photos, measurements etc and offer them to customers under special agreement. Again, the goal here is to offer insight on how much thought/care is behind the introduction of a new product.

Finally, outside of the hobbyist realm, most of the mills we sell to professional/industrial customers are knee mills. -Really, really big ones.


Ray
 

HurricaneWhisperer

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There are no divisive marketing strategies involved in what machines we decide to stock. We can special order virtually any machine a person wishes to have but, payment will be required up-front. Also, Matt does not easily change the relationships he's established with his vendors and furthermore, if we stocked both models, there would be a respective decrease in both quantities -with an ensuing price increase due quantity discount loss. This would further complicate an already difficult supply-chain situation.

The photos were intended to show a general class of machine and corresponding workmanship, fit-and-finish thereof. The specifications of the first 10 machines we ordered were given in a previous post. Sadly, I do not know what picture corresponds to that machine. It was also decided to give the folks on this list a view "behind the scenes" of where and how these machines are produced purely for your edification. When we get the machines, we'll take photos, measurements etc and offer them to customers under special agreement. Again, the goal here is to offer insight on how much thought/care is behind the introduction of a new product.

Finally, outside of the hobbyist realm, most of the mills we sell to professional/industrial customers are knee mills. -Really, really big ones.


Ray
Again, everything you have said makes perfect sense especially considering the market. I am very excited about the new machines and am looking forward to your updates on them. I fully understand and appreciate the nature of the preliminary release of information.

I think PM is on a very good track.

I fully understand that the market goes for knee mills despite the fact the bed mill is better suited for most applications.

My heart of hearts would be a belt driven VFD'd bed mill. Possibly with a high and low set of pulleys if necessary for bottom end torque. Or maybe just by going from a 3hp to a 5 hp motor the two speed belt change wouldn't be necessary. I doubt such a machine would be a commercial success compared to the ubiquity of a knee mill.

That said, of current choices, I really like the PM-45M-PDF with the brushless DC variable speed and your 935TS with VFD. I will wait to hear about the new machines. I am not in a rush. I waited 6 months to get a telescope mount and am glad I did. I have lots of other things to do before I am ready, but honestly your info makes me much more excited than I was when I first started looking into mills.
 

Marco Bernardini

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It was also decided to give the folks on this list a view "behind the scenes" of where and how these machines are produced purely for your edification
I'm sure many people here would be happy to exchange experiences with the fellow machinists assembling their lathes and their mills in Taiwan or elsewhere, but I guess this would be contrary to company policies.
But I bet even the least skilled Chinese worker would try to apply a bit more diligence in the work he's doing, if he knows that machine will go to his friend Jack in Kalamazoo rather than to some unknown guy…
 

Ray C

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Again, everything you have said makes perfect sense especially considering the market. I am very excited about the new machines and am looking forward to your updates on them. I fully understand and appreciate the nature of the preliminary release of information.

I think PM is on a very good track.

I fully understand that the market goes for knee mills despite the fact the bed mill is better suited for most applications.

My heart of hearts would be a belt driven VFD'd bed mill. Possibly with a high and low set of pulleys if necessary for bottom end torque. Or maybe just by going from a 3hp to a 5 hp motor the two speed belt change wouldn't be necessary. I doubt such a machine would be a commercial success compared to the ubiquity of a knee mill.

That said, of current choices, I really like the PM-45M-PDF with the brushless DC variable speed and your 935TS with VFD. I will wait to hear about the new machines. I am not in a rush. I waited 6 months to get a telescope mount and am glad I did. I have lots of other things to do before I am ready, but honestly your info makes me much more excited than I was when I first started looking into mills.

We really do try to offer what folks want but, it's a delicate balance of complicated financial issues -most specifically, everyone wants a Hummer for the price of a GeoSport...

We're going to do our best to offer some machines with much higher fit-and-finish. We've been lambasted over some aspects of the Chinese machines -despite the fact that they're a known quantity and less than 1% of a couple thousand units sold per year have a serious issue. Bad news always travels faster and further than good news -but that's how life seems to go and it's best to take it in stride.

Anyhow, for this particular product introduction, we've decided to bring the decision making process closer to the clients. The folks who've been following my posts, know that I first mentioned this machine about 18-20 months ago and I mentioned back then, it would take about that long to make it a reality. Matt's had negotiations with several factories -actually going to Taiwan to interview the vendors and see the product. We're getting close to pulling this off... we'll see how things go...


-Time to go blow-up my stash of fireworks...

Have a happy/safe 4th of July!


Ray
 

GA Gyro

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#21
WOW...

I knew there was a reason I was taking my time doing the research, rather than just pulling the trigger.

Please put me on the list for one of those new Taiwanese PM45/932 mills... Hopefully with PDF.

As the others have noted... I like the beefier one also... however getting Taiwanese quality in the versatile RF45 design... along with VS, no gearbox, with the power down-feed option... well that is a good mix IMO.

THX

John/GA
 

GA Gyro

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#22
I see three different machines.

1. That really big one in the background of pics 1&2 that apparently won't be imported.
2. The one in the first picture where the base bolts mount to the top of the base.
3. The one in pictures 2-4 where there are a total of 6 base mounting bolts in pidgeon holes. The column to base joint also looks much more stout than the machine in pic 1. The top of the column is sort of rounded and it appears that the column may be wider than on the machine in pic 1, although photos can fool you sometimes due to lens effects. The column also appears to be deeper in the Y direction if you look at the position of the z axis handwheel.

I am certainly interested in the machine in pictures 2 thru 4 and am looking forward to the details and pricing to be published once PM has a chance to look them over.


I understand the marketing strategy outlined with regards to the big machine that won't be imported, but I personally believe that the basic bed mill design of the big machine in the background is much more suited to a CNC application and most manual applications than a knee mill. Knee mills waste an incredible amount of cast iron to provide the ram, knee, tilt, and other features designed for flexibiltiy that rarely get used. There is also a lot more machining and parts required which raise production expense of the machine. Bed mills lose the knee, lose the tilt, lose the ram. Consequently, the bed mill uses the cast iron available more efficiently to construct the base and column of the machine. You can set up special work holding and/or fixturing to approximate a portion of the tilt and ram operational flexibility provided by the knee mill. I owned a machine shop for 20 years and we never once moved the ram from it's normal orientation. Really, the bed mill is the more appropriate mill for the vast majority of machine functions and the knee mill should be more of a specialty machine.

With a bed mill, the base and the column are essentially one component that is much more rigid than the movable knee of a knee mill. A bed mill is far simpler to build and machine with fewer components than the knee mill.

The last machine I bought for my machine shop was a Lagun knee mill to replace the worn out Johnford knee mill we had. I really didn't want a knee mill, I wanted a smaller manual version of the CNC Milltronics RH bed mill we had but I never found such a machine to exist. The bed mill's rigidity, and suitability for large box ways made it a much more durable and capable machine that would have suited our needs much better than the head tilting flexibility of the knee mill that we never used.
After studying the pictures... I agree there are potentially 3 machines in those pictures...

And as noted by the quoted post... the machine in pics 2,3,4 appeals to me also. A knee mill is not an option to move into my basement shop. A beefier version of an RF 45 clone; Taiwanese made, with VS, no gearbox, more Y travel, power X feed, and of course power down feed... would really be a 'winner' IMO. And this new machine would be a HIT for folks who want to do a CNC build!

Pray tell... were these pics taken at the PM warehouse in Pittsburgh? <grin>
 

chips&more

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#23
For what it's worth, it aint that hard to move a bridgeport alone. The easy thing to do is rent a set of machine jacks for 40 bucks and just jack it up and roll it. I just used a engine lift to set it on pipes and a come along to pull it. I'm just saying, dont miss out on what you want when there are ways around them. Or you could build some machine jacks, but renting is so cheap

That’s one good way! Another good way for one person. I got one of those import cherry pickers and straddled the bp base. Then picked up the bp high enough to turn it 90° and set it down on top of the cherry picker base. Then I was able to roll the bp around using the cherry picker wheels, worked like a charm. Of coarse this would only work on a level, smooth and flat surface...Good Luck.
 

wrmiller

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#24
After talking to the folks at Charter Oak and getting my hands on their 'option list' I think I may have to walk back my title to this thread and change it to "pay quite a bit more".

After adding up all the goodies I think I need (want?) on this machine, I'm well north of 5k, and haven't even added a DRO yet! Ouch! It would be a heck of a machine for a hobbyist with limited space though... :)

Bill
 

GA Gyro

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After talking to the folks at Charter Oak and getting my hands on their 'option list' I think I may have to walk back my title to this thread and change it to "pay quite a bit more".

After adding up all the goodies I think I need (want?) on this machine, I'm well north of 5k, and haven't even added a DRO yet! Ouch! It would be a heck of a machine for a hobbyist with limited space though... :)

Bill
Could you post a link to the website for the machine... THX!
 

wrmiller

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Could you post a link to the website for the machine... THX!
Not sure if I should do that? But all you have to do is Google Charter Oak Automation and you'll get the link.

Bill
 

GA Gyro

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Not sure if I should do that? But all you have to do is Google Charter Oak Automation and you'll get the link.

Bill
THX...

Still have not figured out the upspoken protocal at this forum...

Definitely different than the trades forums of my business.

THX again.
 

Chip

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#28
Guys,

Have a look at these... Ask questions and I'll tell you what I can answer... The are the 932/45 Taiwanese units I mentioned before. We've had these under wraps for a while and "Da Man" says it's time to talk about them. The people of this list will have a first crack at them. Matt is unable to take questions about these so, please... don't call him... He's really focused on shipping the 1340's and next week, the 932 and 935's...
Ray
Is the currently offered PM-45m-CNC made from one of these Taiwanese mills pictured above?
 

zmotorsports

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#29
Is the currently offered PM-45m-CNC made from one of these Taiwanese mills pictured above?
I don't believe so. I think it is the same Chinese PM-45 with ball screws and servos. They also offer it in CNC "ready" condition which I think has the ball screws but still is a manual machine. Then when you decide to go CNC you merely add the servos.

I am sure Ray C. can answer for certain, although I haven't seen him on here much lately.
 
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