Planning to get a Sherline 4410 and 5410; help with accessories/etc. guidance, please?

lagweezle

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I'm a complete noob at the machining world, but I've been doing a huge amount of reading and research. I've gone through Tabletop Machining by Joe Martin, The Home Machinist's Handbook by Doug Briney, and have sort-of read a number of the Workshop Practice Series books (Lathework a Complete Course, and Milling a Complete Course, both by Harold Hall). You get the idea.

Small mechanical devices, gear trains, air-engines, functioning models, etc. and the odd improvement / replacement part for things about the apartment are the likely uses for the machines. Given the small size, ability to pack them away for storage to some degree, and the ability to get some pretty astounding precision while also working with most available materials, Sherline machines are what I'm planning to get. It seems like it offers a huge amount of possibilities while being about as apartment friendly as one could hope for.

Related, since I live in a second floor apartment with dogs, grinding my own cutting tools is something I'll need to leave for some time in the future as it just doesn't seem worth the necessary space expenditures and acrobatics necessary to ensure areas stay safe and clean for the dogs, nieces, etc. So, I've been looking at the insert tooling and tools from A.R. Warner Company since I won't be grinding stuff any time soon, but knowing which I should pick is ... proving problematic.

General plans are to figure out how things work manually, first, and then move into some CNC as well. I'm a software dev for my "real job", so the programming portion is definitely not concerning. Also took a few drafting courses (by hand in middle school, also in college before moving on to AutoCAD) and have done some things with Fusion 360 and 3D printers, so I figure I'll do okay there.

I already have, or have on the way, a fair number of tools. Not sure if I should start a seperate thread for suggestions on what else I *need* vs things I can hold off on for now.

As for the machines ... After comparing the packages, prices, and accessory lists, while keeping in mind what I've seen in a number of threads, it looks like I will be best served by getting the 4410 CNC-Ready 3.5x17" Lathe with Package C, and the 5410 CNC-Ready Mill (no package) with the 15" Extended Column Upgrade and 18" Extended Mill Table, and purchasing a few things from Sherline and a few things from other places. Note: this mill includes the 1-1/4" headstock spacer block.

If I got the machine shop package I pay a few hundred more, lose out on the compound center and thread cutter in exchange for a rotary table and angle table, with some cutting tools and drill chucks being added or removed. Since the advice in most of what I've read was to replace the tools with others, I'm only really losing out on the rotary table and angle table.

The current plan, then, is to get the Lathe w/Package C, the Mill, and the Hi-Torque stepper + driver package from Sherline.

Planned accessory purchases:

* 1030 3.1" 4 Jaw Independent chuck for the lathe
* 0XA Quick Change Tool Post from LittleMachineShop
* 3/4"-16 Beall ER32 Collet Chuck w/5 collets and a wrench set
* 2" Screwless Vise from LittleMachineShop
* 7620 Single Flute Insert Fly Cutter
* 3560 4"x10" Mill Tooling Plate
* 3012 Standard Hold-Down Set (x2)
* CNC Rotary Table with Stepper Motor
* 3750 Tilting Angle Table
* 7506 Machinist's Parallel Bar Set
* 1300 Mill Column Riser Block

I'm debating the radius cutting tool, and if I'd be better off making my own instead.

I'm also wondering about the slitting saw holder, and how to choose the appropriate slitting saw.

I also need a number of drills, but I'm still a bit confused on spotting drills vs center drills, and jobber vs machine screw drill bits, and I guess I should have them slightly under sized and use a reamer of the appropriate size to get it properly to size? Or is the under-sized only for when I'll be threading something?

Any guidance at this point as to which things I'm missing, how to choose the drills, the insert tools, what I should probably make rather than buy, etc. would be *greatly* appreciated!

I referenced a lot of threads from these forums to get to this point. I'm too new here to link things, but to all of those folks in those threads, this one, and in future threads, THANK YOU!
 
Howdy neighbor! Looks like a pretty good list, but I would try to include a small bench grinder and some HSS tool bits if at all possible
Mark
 
Welcome to HM, lagweezle! First post and you're already a supporting member - very good!

It looks like you did your homework. You chose a good lathe and mill with decent tooling packages. I'll weigh in here but keep in mind that I'm strictly a manual guy with no CNC background. Speaking of that, I'm glad you plan to learn to use your machines manually first. In my opinion, this is an important first step. Much of machining is done by sound, feel and touch, and you get that by machining manually. You will know when your machine is working at its maximum by the way it loads up, the way it sounds and the way the cutter cuts and feels as you feed. There is a connection to your machine that you cannot get with CNC and I prefer it this way.

As for the lathe tooling package, I highly recommend you see if they will swap the 2.5", 3 jaw for a 3.1", 3 jaw. It is much more useful. I have most of these chucks and the most useful one is the 3.1", 3 jaw. I also agree with the tilting angle table. You will need this more than you might think to mount your rotab and a screwless vise to it. Otherwise, I don't see anything else that you missed for the lathe.

With regard to the radius cutting tool, I guess it might be useful if you must make precisely sized round stuff. I have never used one and have no plans to. I use a graver tool rest and gravers to make round stuff as it is very, very, very effective at that. Thing is, it will round surfaces at any point on the work that you choose, not just the end. Gravers are so much more versatile than a simple radius tool, which only does one thing. Trust me; look into gravers. Plans are available to make your own tool rest if you choose or you can buy one ready made from Sherline.

Instead of the Sherline parallels, here is a better buy from LMS. At some point, buy an Ultra-thin set that goes up in 1/16" increments; they allow you to drill close to an edge and are very useful.

The Sherline slitting saw holder works fine. You need to buy slitting saws with a 1/2" hole in the center. Tons of them are usually on ebay. Choose the diameter and thickness you need. We can discuss this more later when the need arises.

Center drills are used to make a hole at the end of a lathe work piece. The 60 degree hole it makes is intended to precisely fit and support the 60 degree nose of a live or dead center. The most useful sizes are #1 and #2. You want to use the smallest one that will support your work piece.

Spotting drills are intended to create a starting hole for a drill to fit into. Drills come with different tip geometries but the most common ones are 118 degree for general use and 135 degree; both work and you can look their pros and cons up. If you use 118 degree drills, use a 120 degree spotting drills. If you use 135 degree drills, use a 140 degree spotter.

Jobber drills are the typical long version that you find in most industrial sets and at the home center. Screw machine drills are the same except they are shorter and more rigid; therefore tend to be more accurate when sharp and require less headroom to use. Jobber drills go deeper, screw machine drills fit when headroom is tight. You can buy either but you will eventually have both; I would buy jobber drills first. Also, you will eventually need fractional, wire and letter sized drills and I suggest you buy sets in that order.

Also buy some transfer punches and transfer screws at some point.

With regard to turning tools, AR Warner makes good stuff. If I were to buy a set, I would get this one. It uses a T-15 HSS insert in the CCXX configuration. This holder should also accept CCMT and CCGT carbide inserts if the need for carbide arises. The T-15 inserts can be sharpened easily by honing the top of the insert on a diamond stone. This is a good set of stones.

Of course, a shop ground HSS tool ground for high performance will easily outperform those AR Warner tools but you need to grind them. At some time in the future, do yourself a favor and learn to grind these tools. I've been using a Sherline lathe for near 30 years and can tell you that no inserted or brazed tool will outperform a good HSS tool on that lathe, especially when precision is required. And no, I do not recommend the preground HSS tools from Sherline.

I totally agree with the Beall ER chuck - great tool with decent precision. If you want to use it on the lathe, the Beall collets work fine. If you use it for tool holding on the mill, buy some better collets just for that purpose in 1/8", 3/16", 1/4", 5/16", 3/8" and 1/2" sizes. Techniks is the best bang for the buck. Also consider buying a Rego-Fix nut; it will improve the accuracy of the chuck.

I think I covered most of your questions. If I missed some, shout out.

EDIT: forgot to add that at some point, buy an angle block set for use with your tilting table.

You also need a decent dial indicator and dial test indicator, dial or digital calipers and at least a 0-1" and maybe a 1-2" micrometer.
 
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Howdy neighbor! Looks like a pretty good list, but I would try to include a small bench grinder and some HSS tool bits if at all possible
Of course, a shop ground HSS tool ground for high performance will easily outperform those AR Warner tools but you need to grind them. At some time in the future, do yourself a favor and learn to grind these tools. ...

Grinding my own tools is absolutely in my plans for the future, but the only way I could manage it now is to stand mount it and bring it down three floors into the communal garage area and hope I can get enough lighting and actually run a cord to it. Either that, or maybe in the tub... The mill and lathe are going to be challenging, but at least do-able to keep from flinging bits of metal all over the apartment with appropriate shielding and careful brushing and vacuuming. I've got no idea how to manage that for a grinder, which is kind of frustrating as I've seen some neat things regarding tool-shaping to get some really awesome profiles and cuts from them, one including a video of a person making a chess set where the pieces were under a centimeter in height.


... I highly recommend you see if they will swap the 2.5", 3 jaw for a 3.1", 3 jaw. ...
I had to go check, and it looks like the 17" lathes with any package comes with a 3.1" 3-jaw; the 8" lathes with a package come with the 2.5" 3-jaw. That does give me a good prompting to ask, though, what folks think about the electroless Teflon Nickel Coated option for the chucks. Is it worth the price difference? Will it make a difference I'll ever notice?


Regarding metrology, I've helped the profits of Mitutoyo a bit, and have micrometers to cover the 0-75mm range with ±2 micron accuracy, and calipers for 0-150mm±0.05mm, 0-50mm ±3micron depth gauge (and can add more rods at some point), and an array of some bore/hole gauges. Probably far more than I need at this point, but it gives me something to aspire to. I also am going largely with the "Buy it once" philosophy. Unless I want a disposable tool, I want to buy something good that will last and perform. After reading through much of the commentary of Long Island Indicator's page about how things break, which tend to be repairable, etc. that informed my purchasing decisions a fair bit.

The dial indicator and dial test indicator (and things to hold/attach them with) I do not yet have.
 
One option re HSS tools is to have some ground for you. Then all you need to do is hone them and keep them sharp. Since a good HSS tool can last for a decade or more, this is a very good economic option. I might know someone who can do this for you if you're interested.

Re the teflon chuck, I have no experience with it. My standard old Sherline chuck is now about 30 years old and still has under a thou runout so its good enough for me.
 
Welcome,

I have the inch versions of those two machines, 4400 and 5400 and went with the same options, except not CNC ready and I have the standard 13" table on the mill. If you have the room and the budget for it the 18" table that will add 50% more travel to the X axis.

These are quite compact, and relatively lightweight. I think my lathe weighs 35lbs and the mill about 50lbs, so not difficult for the average person to move. You could easily store them in a cabinet or on a shelf, and use them on a kitchen table if you don't have a dedicated place set up for them. Mine live on a roughly 3x6 ft steel table / desk which provides plenty of room. You will need to come up with a base to mount them to. I will warn you the mill is messy, but the lathe is not too bad.

The C lathe package is a very good deal, but the mill packages have a lot of overlap or include things you may want to replace. I think you are making a good choice there.


As far as the items you listed:

I'll start with pointing out that Sherline has monthly specials which offer 20% off many of the popular items, their chucks, rotary tables, radius cutter show up at least once a year. If you want it, but don't have an urgent need, keep an eye out each month until it shows up as the special then you can save a little money and it helps justify the purchase.

I have the LMS QCTP, I like it but it is a nice to have item, not a must have. The OXA size is a tiny bit on the large side for the lathe, but it works with a little bit of fiddling. One issue, is that since it is a tad large you have to remove the spacer from the base of the tool post. As a result it then works fine with 3/8" bits, but I have to shim my 1/4" bits with 1/8" key stock to bring them up to center. I'll eventually get around to making a 1/8" spacer to go under the tool post which will solve the problem.
The Sherline rocker style posts, are not a major handicap compared to the QCTP. If you have 2 or 3 of them set up with the tools you are going to use, they work sort of like a QCTP. I still use these Sherline tool posts, there are times that they just fit an application better.
If you have the budget for the QCTP, it is nice but if you are looking for things to skip to stay within a budget, this is something you could always get later.

I have the Sherline radius tool, and have used it a few times. It works well, and for the price and the quality I think it is worth buying vs making your own. Unless you have immediate plans to turn some balls or half spheres, it is one of those items that usually turns up as a monthly special.

The Beall ER32 collet chuck is very nice. I found the collets Beall supplied to be well made and accurate, but you can get the Techniks collets Mikey recommends for about the same price that Beall charges for theirs. They will sell the collet chuck without collets if you chose to go that route.

I bought the LMS parallels at Mikey's suggestion. I've ended up buying quite a bit from LMS with no regrets.

I have a 2" steel screwless vise, that I got off of Ebay, I think it was around $40. It works, it is straight. I'm sure the LMS vise is fine.

I didn't see any mention of boring bars or end mills.
Boring bars can give you a more accurate hole than drill bits, although not as good as reamers. A set of boring bars is much more affordable than a set of reamers.

I have bought a couple different sets of endmills from LMS as well as a set of boring bars. They are cheap, but have worked well for me until I can get something better.

Quality end mills, boring bars and reamers quickly add up.

As far as other tools, other than measuring devices I found it handy to buy the specific sizes of Allen wrenches and combination wrenches used on the machines and leave them dedicated for that use. Just easier than digging through the tool box for the couple of sizes you will use frequently.


There are options for grinding HSS tool bits. You might look around for a local maker space, I'm sure there must be a few in the South Bay. You are also going to want to come up with a way to cut your metal stock, hacksaw gets old fast.



The only thing negative I have to say about the Sherline machines is that they are quite small, so you really want to look at the size of things you plan to make. They also are not cheap, you can get a much larger machine often for not much more money. The swing on the lathe is probably its biggest handicap. I've turned material up to 2" diameter on my lathe, but anything over 1-1/2" is a bit of a challenge for me.

As long as the work you want to do fits, they are great little machines. They are well supported with accessories, and unlike many they come with good instructions for set up and use. The company is easy to deal with, and there is a fairly large community of Sherline uses, including some who go a little nuts modifying them for their particular needs.
 
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That does give me a good prompting to ask, though, what folks think about the electroless Teflon Nickel Coated option for the chucks. Is it worth the price difference? Will it make a difference I'll ever notice?

Welcome to H-M!

Nickel coatings are for corrosion resistance and provide some abrasion resistance to protect the surface of the chuck. Other than that, keep it clean, maintained and stored properly and you will have a good life with it.

I haven't heard of a combined electroless teflon-nickel coating. Sounds markety-gimmicky to me. I'll have to look that one up!
 
Welcome to H-M!

Nickel coatings are for corrosion resistance and provide some abrasion resistance to protect the surface of the chuck. Other than that, keep it clean, maintained and stored properly and you will have a good life with it.

I haven't heard of a combined electroless teflon-nickel coating. EDIT: Sounds markety-gimmicky pretty awesome to me. I'll have to look that one up! <---this link explains what PTFE Nickel coatings are and is a kit for DIY folks like us!
https://www.caswellplating.com/elec...fe-teflonr-electroless-nickel-kit-3-gal.html#
 
Welcome to H-M!

Nickel coatings are for corrosion resistance and provide some abrasion resistance to protect the surface of the chuck. Other than that, keep it clean, maintained and stored properly and you will have a good life with it.

I haven't heard of a combined electroless teflon-nickel coating. Sounds markety-gimmicky to me. I'll have to look that one up!


From what I could see on the Sherline website, the coated chuck has looser tolerances to accommodate the coating. That is definitely not something I need. I would go for the standard chuck.
 
I wonder if the coated chuck is something the CNC guys were asking for?

In recent years Sherline has been responding to the desires of the CNC and customizers with some fairly expensive options like ball screws, ER16 head stock, 3C headstock, gang tool holder, pie jaw chucks etc. Not hard to spec out a $2500 Sherline lathe these days when you get into CNC with some custom features.
 
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