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PM-727V or PM-30MV

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Maine

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#1
I've been researching into Bolton Tools, Little Machine Shop, Wholesale Tools, Grizzly, and especially Precision Matthews for months and it seems that Precision Matthews cannot be beaten because of that 3 year warranty and from several comparisons on Youtube and multiple forums across the internet, it seems abundantly clear that Precision Matthews has the best quality control.

With that in mind, I have some electrical limitations for the kind of machine I'm looking for and weight restrictions. I have my work area on the 2nd floor of my house and I do not have access to a 220V outlet. Installing the 220V breaker in the basement and then running the wires to the 2nd floor, it's just out of the question. If the machine weighs more than 800lbs, I don't see any feasible method of getting that machine up the stairs because there is no "safe moving company" that would service Northern Maine, nor any moving or rental service that could provide me a power life hand cart to make the trek up the stairs, within a reasonable distance. I'm more than willing to take the machine apart and then piece it back together on the workbench.

I do however have a possible solution to the 220V problem and perhaps this will help others, there is one contraption that one company came up with, that seems to have some "idiot proofing" built into itself so that you may use "2" 110V outlets (not from the same breaker) to create the necessary 220V, as seen here (without blowing up the breaker box):

Video:

Store Page: http://www.steam-brite.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=electric+car+charger

I want to use the machine for mostly aluminum and polycarbonate materials, which means I need a much higher RPM, I'm also dealing with some very small holes and slots, less than 1mm in diameter, frequently. As much as I would like to have the PM-30MV's 1HP extra, I'm losing 750 RPM from the PM-727V to get it. Is there any "simple" modification to upgrade that motor, while maintaining the variable speed controller, and getting more RPM?

Looking for input on this, I would rather just buy the best machine "the first and only" time.
 

SSage

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#2
Precision Matthews gives good advice, call them.

I have the pm727m, I'm happy with it so far. It's a recent purchase and only have a few hours on it. PM has good support, I have two of their machines. The 727 is fairly small, plugs into 110 and is strong for its size. No belts to move, 1700 rpm has been plenty fast for my needs. I work in steel mostly. It handles a 1" drill bit fine Imo. It's my first small bench mill, actually turned out to be stronger than expected. I'm glad I went with it, takes up much less room in my small shop.

What ever you get, the dro is well worth it.
 

Maine

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#3
Precision Matthews gives good advice, call them.

I have the pm727m, I'm happy with it so far. It's a recent purchase and only have a few hours on it. PM has good support, I have two of their machines. The 727 is fairly small, plugs into 110 and is strong for its size. No belts to move, 1700 rpm has been plenty fast for my needs. I work in steel mostly. It handles a 1" drill bit fine Imo. It's my first small bench mill, actually turned out to be stronger than expected. I'm glad I went with it, takes up much less room in my small shop.
I figure I'll be calling them next weekend, but I'm concerned about using up carbide end mills much faster if the RPM isn't high enough, not that I should be concerned with polycarbonate, but the aluminum, I am concerned about.
 

cut2cut

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#4
Have you looked into getting a high speed spindle /VFD combo from eBay for a few hundred dollars . Just mount it to the head of either mill and you’ll have all the rpm you need for polycarbonate and probably aluminum too. Those usually all require single phase 220, however, so you’d have to use that stream brite setup to get you there ...


For example : ***however, please note it says the inverter accepts 110 single phase but i’m NOT sure i’d rely on that being accurate !!! Or provide less than desirable performance if it does. I’d look into the model to ensure, and also inquire with the seller what to expect. With regards to performance via 110 vs 220.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1500W-1-5K...hash=item1a3f7becbe:m:mffgt6aqVUAt82pgjRC1Usw
 
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Maine

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#5
Have you looked into getting a high speed spindle /VFD combo from eBay for a few hundred dollars . Just mount it to the head of either mill and you’ll have all the rpm you need for polycarbonate and probably aluminum too. Those usually all require single phase 220, however, so you’d have to use that stream brite setup to get you there ...


For example : ***however, please note it says the inverter accepts 110 single phase but i’m NOT sure i’d rely on that being accurate !!! Or provide less than desirable performance if it does. I’d look into the model to ensure, and also inquire with the seller what to expect. With regards to performance via 110 vs 220.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1500W-1-5K...hash=item1a3f7becbe:m:mffgt6aqVUAt82pgjRC1Usw
That ebay listing also says that the CNC motor can go up to 24,000 RPM, that seems a bit high if not impossible, but that would be a sight to see lol.

I think to get an idea of how to mount that, I would have to see the machine up close. I haven't found much information about how that works. Thanks for that suggestion.

This also might look familiar:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/New...28d6-4a23-9e5c-4d9c75f20f80&priceBeautifyAB=4

I personally don't even bother feeding those ebay resellers that just buy from Aliexpress.
 
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cut2cut

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#6
That ebay listing also says that the CNC motor can go up to 24,000 RPM, that seems a bit high if not impossible, but that would be a sight to see lol.

I think to get an idea of how to mount that, I would have to see the machine up close. I haven't found much information about how that works. Thanks for that suggestion.
Do a search on YouTube for videos of people using them . 24k rpm is normal , Just don’t expect much torque at all at low rpm. These are meant for small cutters which require high rpm, but that seems to be what you are after. Then just use the PM’s built in for low rpm steel or bigger end mill work when you need more torque. Seems ideal for your needs.
 

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#7
Go with the PM-727V, you are not really giving up 1Hp, because you have more gear selections so the 1 Hp is more optimized over a narrow range of RPMs. Most rooms or areas/outlets will be on one breaker, trying to get two outlets in the same area on different rails of the 240V is going to be difficult without long extension cords. You do not need speeds in the 24K realm, and 1.5kW would need to be on a 20A or 30A 120V circuit. The PM-727V is a lot of mill for the price in a compact footprint/weight. My mill spins to 5K, I have yet to mill anything in aluminum at over 3K. If you were to go CNC, flood coolant, small end mills etc. then yes you would want higher speeds to optimize performance. Polycarbonate, too high RPM an it will melt.
 

Maine

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#8
Go with the PM-727V, you are not really giving up 1Hp, because you have more gear selections so the 1 Hp is more optimized over a narrow range of RPMs. Most rooms or areas/outlets will be on one breaker, trying to get two outlets in the same area on different rails of the 240V is going to be difficult without long extension cords. You do not need speeds in the 24K realm, and 1.5kW would need to be on a 20A or 30A 120V circuit. The PM-727V is a lot of mill for the price in a compact footprint/weight. My mill spins to 5K, I have yet to mill anything in aluminum at over 3K. If you were to go CNC, flood coolant, small end mills etc. then yes you would want higher speeds to optimize performance. Polycarbonate, too high RPM an it will melt.
I think the PM-727V does sound better as well
 

19E60

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#9
As Mark said above getting 220 could be problematic. The PM-727V sounds like the one for you. The negative for me would be the 6 step changes, mainly because I have a lazy streak that I struggle with at times...my PM-30 stays on the high speed steps even though changes are ridiculously easy.

Just an fyi for anyone interested in the PM-30; I know the specs state 2250 max rpm, however mine spins max at 3004. I don't know if mine is an anomaly or the spec sheet is in error.
 

Maine

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#10
As Mark said above getting 220 could be problematic. The PM-727V sounds like the one for you. The negative for me would be the 6 step changes, mainly because I have a lazy streak that I struggle with at times...my PM-30 stays on the high speed steps even though changes are ridiculously easy.

Just an fyi for anyone interested in the PM-30; I know the specs state 2250 max rpm, however mine spins max at 3004. I don't know if mine is an anomaly or the spec sheet is in error.
If it turns out that the PM-30MV is in fact, supposed to be 3000 RPM, I'm going to buy the PM-30MV, because I have direct access to another room through a hole between the rooms that would allow me to easily get the 220V.
 

Kiwi Canuck

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#12
The PM 727V also shows it does 3,000 RPM.

Main Specifications:
Model No.: PM-727V
Max. Drilling Capacity: 1-1/4″
Max. End Milling Capacity: 1″
Max. Face Milling Capacity: 3″
Table Size: 27-1/2″ x 7-1/8″
Cross Travel (Y Axis): 8-1/2″
Longitudinal Travel (X Axis): 15″
Table Leadscrew Pitch 10 TPI (.100″ Per Turn)
Table Dial Graduations .001″
Vertical Travel (Z Axis): 16″
Max Distance Spindle to Table: 18-1/4″
Taper of Spindle: R-8, w/7/16-20 Drawbar Thread
Spindle (Quill) Travel: 3″
T Slot Size: 1/2″(T Slots are slightly less than 1/2″, actual size 12mm, our 1/2″ kit
is sized for this machine)
Range of Spindle Speeds: 40-3000rpm, 6 Steps, variable in each range
Head Tilt: Left & Right ±90°
Motor: 1 HP
Net Weight (Not Including Base): 475 LBS
Net Weight (With Optional Base): 575 LBS
Power Required: 110/120V, Minimum 15 Amp Circuit
Dimensions (Assembled on stand): 39″W x 70″H x 30″D
Height with head at top of Z travel: 76″ (On Stand)
Height with head at normal working height: 71″ (On Stand)
Optional Stand Height 27-5/8″
 

Maine

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#13
The PM 727V also shows it does 3,000 RPM.

Main Specifications:
Model No.: PM-727V
Max. Drilling Capacity: 1-1/4″
Max. End Milling Capacity: 1″
Max. Face Milling Capacity: 3″
Table Size: 27-1/2″ x 7-1/8″
Cross Travel (Y Axis): 8-1/2″
Longitudinal Travel (X Axis): 15″
Table Leadscrew Pitch 10 TPI (.100″ Per Turn)
Table Dial Graduations .001″
Vertical Travel (Z Axis): 16″
Max Distance Spindle to Table: 18-1/4″
Taper of Spindle: R-8, w/7/16-20 Drawbar Thread
Spindle (Quill) Travel: 3″
T Slot Size: 1/2″(T Slots are slightly less than 1/2″, actual size 12mm, our 1/2″ kit
is sized for this machine)
Range of Spindle Speeds: 40-3000rpm, 6 Steps, variable in each range
Head Tilt: Left & Right ±90°
Motor: 1 HP
Net Weight (Not Including Base): 475 LBS
Net Weight (With Optional Base): 575 LBS
Power Required: 110/120V, Minimum 15 Amp Circuit
Dimensions (Assembled on stand): 39″W x 70″H x 30″D
Height with head at top of Z travel: 76″ (On Stand)
Height with head at normal working height: 71″ (On Stand)
Optional Stand Height 27-5/8″
Yeah, I knew about that, but for $50 more, another 50lbs of weight, 8" more X-Axis travel, but 1" lost in the Z-axis, I can live with that. I'm going to ask on Monday about the lack of 6 steps just to see how big of a deal that is, but I doubt it is.
 

Maine

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#14
I tested the breakers last night just to make sure that both rooms were on a different breaker and they indeed are on separate breakers. Since the machine is going to be drawing about 5 amps from each room, I also checked to see what might become an issue and I have nothing in the next room that would cause any problems, nor in the room where I work. I also tested the outlets, which all read out at 122.1V. Since I'm paranoid about electrical fires, I'm adding a breaker tie so that both breakers will flip if something goes wrong.

I also looked around and I did find out that there is one Sunbelt Rentals location in Bangor that I can use to get that machine up to the second floor without having to take the machine apart:

https://www.sunbeltrentals.com/equipment/detail/1225/0440087/stair-climber-650lb/

I have someone that can spot me as I make the upward climb, just in case, but I'm confident this will be fine.

As for getting it on the bench I built just for this milling machine, Sunbelt also has this engine hoist:

https://www.sunbeltrentals.com/equipment/detail/1134/0730011/engine-hoist/

Which I found out is actually this engine hoist:

http://www.icfinc.com/engine-lifts-tip-tow-ii.html

tip-tow-2-big.jpg

Judging from the photo and measuring the height of the room and the height of the bench, I'm confident that the hoist will clear the machine and the height of the bench and get the machine up there just fine.

About $150 of "moving rental" here, I'll be sure to update this thread when I get the shipment and get everything on the bench.

I just realized have an unexpected problem. I need to remove the table to clear the doorways.

The machine dimensions:

Dimension Front To Back, from back of chip pan, to front table handle tip 31” (Can be pushed back against a wall, and table handle tip will be 31” from wall)
x
Width, Tip to Tip of table handles 46-1/4”
The doorway clearance is 28", which means that the only way to do this at all is to remove the table.
 
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19E60

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#15
The doorway clearance is 28", which means that the only way to do this at all is to remove the table
Maine, the given dimension is with the chip pan installed, the machine ships without the pan installed. Depth without pan is 28" from back of machine to tip of Y axis handle. Just remove the handle and handwheel (2 minute process at most) and you are down to 24", ample clearance indeed.

Removing the table is not a bad idea anyway, I recommend doing so as a part of the machine clean-up and prep/lube process. I did with mine and although there wasn't a terrible amount of grit/gunk there was still some and I felt much better getting it all out of there. It will add a second trip up the stairs but hauling 530 lbs. up in one shot is a chore I wouldn't look forward to.
 

Maine

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Maine, the given dimension is with the chip pan installed, the machine ships without the pan installed. Depth without pan is 28" from back of machine to tip of Y axis handle. Just remove the handle and handwheel (2 minute process at most) and you are down to 24", ample clearance indeed.

Removing the table is not a bad idea anyway, I recommend doing so as a part of the machine clean-up and prep/lube process. I did with mine and although there wasn't a terrible amount of grit/gunk there was still some and I felt much better getting it all out of there. It will add a second trip up the stairs but hauling 530 lbs. up in one shot is a chore I wouldn't look forward to.
Thanks for that correction, I think I will still remove the table anyways just to help with the weight.
 

cut2cut

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#17
You may or may not need to do this, but consider adding some plywood sheets over your existing flooring when you use that engine hoist. It could be enough point load on the wheels that it will go right through your flooring. Hopefully thats overkill, but just thought I'd throw that out there since you've planning everything out with great care already.

Jake
 

Maine

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#18
You may or may not need to do this, but consider adding some plywood sheets over your existing flooring when you use that engine hoist. It could be enough point load on the wheels that it will go right through your flooring. Hopefully thats overkill, but just thought I'd throw that out there since you've planning everything out with great care already.

Jake
I've actually been thinking about doing that now for a few weeks, the floor material in that room could use a replacement. I'm already going to be doing something like that anyways because I don't want to mar the floor (more) from doing this.
 

rwm

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#19
Interesting plan to use two different phase 120v receptacles. Just to be clear, you will be drawing 10 amps from each circuit. The load is not split in half by this method. I don't see an inherent safety issue with this method but it is certainly not to "code"! I am not sure about tying the breaker handles together. Maybe someone else has a thought on that? If one breaker tripped the other side of the circuit would still be hot at 120v above ground potential so I guess it is a good idea to connect them.
Robert
 

Maine

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#20
Interesting plan to use two different phase 120v receptacles. Just to be clear, you will be drawing 10 amps from each circuit. The load is not split in half by this method. I don't see an inherent safety issue with this method but it is certainly not to "code"! I am not sure about tying the breaker handles together. Maybe someone else has a thought on that? If one breaker tripped the other side of the circuit would still be hot at 120v above ground potential so I guess it is a good idea to connect them.
Robert
That's the reason I'm tying them together, I would rather they both flipped and not have a potentially bad situation.
 

SSage

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#21
Why not run 220 volt to the machine? A roll of 10-2 wire with ground is not that expensive, add a beaker or two in the nearest existing panel. Use a 220 dryer or air conditioner receptacle in the wall. If the exterior service panel is near the room you could run some conduit up an outside wall into the room. If its not your house you could temporarily use an existing 110 outlet and change it to 220, pull the right wire to the existing outlet hole.

Regardless, you want to minimize the distance or length of cords to the machine and use quality 12 gauge HD extension cords if you have to. It probably would be cheaper to run romex though.

I use an exterior rated 10 guage cord through my attic to feed my 220 compressor. That stuff ain't cheap either, but I got it for free off an electrician friend. I just dropped it down from the ceiling to a wall mounted disconnect. Very thick black rubber jacket, looks like the same stuff my 50 amp RV cord is made from.
 

Maine

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#22
Why not run 220 volt to the machine? A roll of 10-2 wire with ground is not that expensive, add a beaker or two in the nearest existing panel. Use a 220 dryer or air conditioner receptacle in the wall. If the exterior service panel is near the room you could run some conduit up an outside wall into the room. If its not your house you could temporarily use an existing 110 outlet and change it to 220, pull the right wire to the existing outlet hole.

Regardless, you want to minimize the distance or length of cords to the machine and use quality 12 gauge HD extension cords if you have to. It probably would be cheaper to run romex though.

I use an exterior rated 10 guage cord through my attic to feed my 220 compressor. That stuff ain't cheap either, but I got it for free off an electrician friend. I just dropped it down from the ceiling to a wall mounted disconnect. Very thick black rubber jacket, looks like the same stuff my 50 amp RV cord is made from.
The breaker box and the room I work in are separated by 2 floors, if I was putting the machine in the basement, I would just wire it myself, but we have a radon problem and as much as I trust that the mitigator is working, I wouldn't want to be down there for a long period of time.
 

Maine

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#23
I just ordered the PM-30MV machine, at long last. I also ordered the T-Slot Clamp kit, because I don't want to "guess" on Amazon/Aliexpress/eBay.

I also wanted to make a note that I painfully regret I could not buy a bridgeport, because I had the opportunity to get one from an auction for less than $500.

I also wanted to note that while I was looking at other machines, I came upon a Jet JMD-18 for $850, but I watched it run in real life and it shook way too much on a light cut. The handwheels felt like you would tire yourself out after a few minutes of work without X-Axis power feed. Overall, I definitely wasn't impressed.
 
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fradish

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#24
Don't be surprised if the T-Slot nuts in your set have to be machined slightly to fit the table. It looks like the PM30MV has 14mm
slots and the kit is 9/16" which seems to be just slightly larger than 14mm. I have the PM727M which has 12mm slots which were
slightly smaller than the 1/2" kit I got. Not a big deal, it gave me my first milling project... :)
 

Maine

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#25
Don't be surprised if the T-Slot nuts in your set have to be machined slightly to fit the table. It looks like the PM30MV has 14mm
slots and the kit is 9/16" which seems to be just slightly larger than 14mm. I have the PM727M which has 12mm slots which were
slightly smaller than the 1/2" kit I got. Not a big deal, it gave me my first milling project... :)
I'm gonna be mad if that is true, because I could have gotten them for half on Aliexpress...
 

Maine

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#26
My PM-30MV arrives on Wednesday!

I have a question, I know that the PM-30MV needs a 220V outlet, but which one, there seems to be 5 different NEMA specifications. If someone could share with me a picture of what their machine's plug looks like, that would be most helpful!

350px-NEMA_simplified_pins.svg.png
 

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#27
I don’t know if it is the case with your mill, but I think a lot of 220v machines arrive without a plug so you can get what matches your outlet.
 

Maine

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#28
I don’t know if it is the case with your mill, but I think a lot of 220v machines arrive without a plug so you can get what matches your outlet.
Oh that would be great, thank you, I just want to buy correctly the first time.
 

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#29
I would still ask Matt or see if anyone who has one replies to be sure.
 

SSage

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#30
Get one rated for 20 amps or so, we just bought some twist lock receps and matching plugs off eBay cheap. Much cheaper than Lowe's. Most hardware stores have a selection of 220 volt stuff if you need it fast. You can get a 220 plug for clothes dryers almost anywhere, those work fine too. I like the twist lock though, I can mount those in the ceiling above the machines with no issues.
 
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