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mrjbinok

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#1
I recently purchased a PM25-MV and have decided that my first project will be to add a Z axis power feed. Adequate information of motor specs is in short supply, everywhere I have looked on the web, so here is what I decided to go with.... hopefully it will work out. One thing that I hope is that I will be able to avoid making any modifications that result in permanent changes to the basic machine.

https://vod.ebay.com/vod/FetchOrderDetails?itemid=372095953216&transid=1006962105024&ul_noapp=true

There are several different options for the type of motor to use and prices run anywhere from $30 to several hundred dollars. The right angle style geared motors have a better overall appearance for me and this will be my first choice.

I plan to use a transformer switching power supply with at least 30 Amp capability to allow for future additions. My motor is rated at 6 Amps at full load so this size power supply should be beefy enough to handle just about anything.

In addition to the basic up down control switching, I will be mounting upper and lower limit switches for protection, as well a sheer type coupling between the motor and the hand crank shaft.

I invite everyone to follow and contribute photos, thoughts, ideas, resources, links, dimensions, and recommendations here.
 

roadie33

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#2
Here is one from MrPragmaticLee on YouTube that he did on his PM Mill
I am going to do something like it for my G0704.
Just waiting on some warmer weather to go out to do the welding.

 

mrjbinok

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#4
It looks like this is for your transaction, can you post a public link to the motor?
What I got is a MAKERMOTOR brand

100 RPM
Nominal Current 6 Amps
Part Number PN01007-10038

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Makermotor...953216?hash=item56a2a5a940:g:HjEAAOSwXaZZ1W-b

Many of the motors I looked at do not have any actual torque specs to compare so I hope that it's gonna have enough UMPH to lift the head reliably. I also picked up two Eaton Yale Nylon Pinion Gears. 18 tooth, 1 5/8 diameter, and molded for a 5/8" shaft. This will be slightly smaller than the existing handle shaft so it will have to be reamed for fit. The motor shaft is 3/8 so I will have to turn a bushing that will press into the gear. Looking for matching gears was looking like a pretty expensive part of the project so I opted to modify these to fit and save some $$$.

I am working with my Cardiologist to get my BP meds regulated better so I can get out to the shop SOON!! That's an adventure that I hope I never have to repeat. In the meantime I will try to get some pictures of what I have bought so far and start laying out my drawings.

In the meantime be sure to follow Shooter 123456's modification thread. He's got some pretty interesting stuff going on!!

https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/new-pm-25mv-mill.65939/page-2#post-567497
 
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talvare

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#5
Many of the motors I looked at do not have any actual torque specs to compare so I hope that it's gonna have enough UMPH to lift the head reliably.
When I built my knee power drive unit, I determined the required torque by kind of going the "Flintstone" method. I had my Kurt vise on the table and stacked 200 lbs. of lead shot on the table as well. Since I had already machined part of my clutch drive assembly which also included a 1" hex for manual operation, I just used my torque wrench on the hex and raised the table, adjusting the torque wrench setting until I determined the minimum required torque to raise the table.
Just an idea you may be able to use.

Ted
 

mrjbinok

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#6
Just an idea you may be able to use.

Ted
Good idea Ted. Going "Flintstone" is how we as hobbyist's figure out what to do next!!

My problem with the lower cost 're-purposed' motors I've found on the web, is that they don't have any torque specs available, so you're kinda out there flapping in the breeze till you try something to see if it will work. I've hooked this motor that I picked up to a 12 volt power supply and it does seem to be a pretty hefty little motor. That's about as far as I have gotten with the project though. I am going through the medications maze following a mild heart attack to find something that will get me back on my feet so I can work out in the shop.

This is a scan of the only documentation I can find on this motor:

Z Axis Motor.jpg The "NOTE" applies to this motor
 

mrjbinok

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#7
I did finally find some torque specs on (of all places) Amazon

Product features

  • Rated Voltage: 13.5 VDC
  • Rated Speed: 100 RPM
  • Rated Load: 60 Watts
  • Rated Torque: 3 N-m (2.2 ft-lb)
  • Shaft: 3/8" shaft with 1 flat ("D" shaft) where flat to OD is 0.322" and the length of the shaft is 0.886" long

Now to do some research to get an idea on whether this will work or not!!

According to MrPragmaticLee's video above the motor he is using produces 42 inch pounds of torque.... This motor produces 26.4 inch pounds.

This might struggle a bit, but he states that a smaller motor may work just as well.... it was just what he had available. I think that going 'Flintstone' (Thanks Ted.... I like that phrase!!) is next on my list of things to look at.
 
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mrjbinok

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#8
I was finally able to get set up to see what kind of torque would be needed to raise the head on the Z axis. the MakerMotor is rated at 26.4 inch pounds and according my test I was able to raise the head with 15 inch pounds. That is without a final adjustment on the gib pressure.... just the way it came from the factory, so that may change once I do the adjustments.

With this in mind I'll start looking at how I will mount the motor and get the gears mated up to the crank handle shaft and the motor output shaft. Since I was working by myself to get the machine up to the workbench top, I had to remove the table, cross carriage, and the vertical column with the head. Took some time to get it moved, but now I will start cleaning everything up and put it all back together. FUN FUN FUN!!! Getting closer to making chips.
 

T Bredehoft

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#9
I have a Ford Windstar wiper motor on my PM25, it is plenty powerful, but I use it only for cranking the head up and down. not for cutting. It's about 60 rpm, six inches a minute.
 

mrjbinok

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#10
I have a Ford Windstar wiper motor on my PM25, it is plenty powerful, but I use it only for cranking the head up and down. not for cutting. It's about 60 rpm, six inches a minute.
That's about the physical size of this motor. The rated output rpm's on the motor/gear assembly is suppose to be 100 rpm's so this should work nicely. I had seen several write-ups and videos that had used around 75 rpm's and they all said that a little faster would be nice. There are several different variations on the MakerMotor website and they are available in quantity on fleabay. I plan to make some mechanical drawings of whetever support bracket I end up making so perhaps others will benefit in the future.

What did you do for a mounting bracket? Can you post a picture or two for ideas?

I don't plan to use the motor to raise and lower the quill for cutting.... just to position the head to minimize flex and vibration. For the most part I plan to use collets as tool holders for that reason. I'm new to milling operations so I'll likely have a large learning curve on what works for me and what doesn't. That's what is nice about these forums..... I have a whole array of folks with more experience to keep me in line. Thanks for contributing to my project.
 

T Bredehoft

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#11
For reason beyond my thinking, I mounted the motor to operate a toothed belt to drive the head. I could just as easily mounted it direct. The PM25 head crank is on the left at the top of the column. I fabricated a mount on the bearing retainer there mounted the motor on the back of the mount. I put too toothed pulleys on the other side of the mount, one on the motor one on the crank shaft. The hardest part was making an output shaft from the motor. as it comes it has a stub about 1.4" long, square with a rounded half. Originally a flat piece of steel was pressed on to this stub. Using the mill I carved a hole in the end of a shaft that went threw two bearings with the toothed pulley between them.

I wish I had more RPMs, seems to take forever running the head up and down, between using a drill chuck or a milling cutter. Fifteen seconds per inch for 2 1/2 inches isn't long, but If I had a 4 Inch quill I wouldn't have to do it.
 

mrjbinok

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#12
For reason beyond my thinking, I mounted the motor to operate a toothed belt to drive the head. I could just as easily mounted it direct. The PM25 head crank is on the left at the top of the column. I fabricated a mount on the bearing retainer there mounted the motor on the back of the mount. I put too toothed pulleys on the other side of the mount, one on the motor one on the crank shaft. The hardest part was making an output shaft from the motor. as it comes it has a stub about 1.4" long, square with a rounded half. Originally a flat piece of steel was pressed on to this stub. Using the mill I carved a hole in the end of a shaft that went threw two bearings with the toothed pulley between them.

I wish I had more RPMs, seems to take forever running the head up and down, between using a drill chuck or a milling cutter. Fifteen seconds per inch for 2 1/2 inches isn't long, but If I had a 4 Inch quill I wouldn't have to do it.
They must have changed the design in the column. My crank is on the top right (facing the machine) I didn't buy the bracket that they make for the motor so I will have to fabricate something to work. I hope to be able to piggyback the bracket and motor to the existing crank flange (rectangular) and I have two nylon gears that I will modify on the lathe to fit the two shafts..... and slot the mounting bracket to allow for fine tuning the gear mesh.

I started some drawings last night with my TurboCad. I've got a few other things to do this afternoon, but hopefully I can get started with the fabrication and lathe work this afternoon. I'll be taking pictures of the project and will be able to post the drawings when I get it done.
 

T Bredehoft

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#13
You are correct, I got it wrong, the handle/head drive is on the right facing the machine. I didn't know about a motor mounting bracket. Enjoy the experience of developing a solution.
 

alfaspider

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#14
You are correct, I got it wrong, the handle/head drive is on the right facing the machine. I didn't know about a motor mounting bracket. Enjoy the experience of developing a solution.
Did you post any pictures of the motor drive ? thanks,
 

T Bredehoft

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Did you post any pictures of the motor drive ? thanks,
Sorry, no, I can't get the camera in a position so that it shows anything.
 

mrjbinok

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#16
Did you post any pictures of the motor drive ? thanks,
Sorry no I haven't yet. All I have right now is the manufacturer's mechanical drawing.

I am really restricted right now by health issues. I haven't been able to get much shop time since I started the project. Hopefully I'll get my meds regulated and things will settle down soon
 

mrjbinok

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#17
I need to learn how to read the names on the post's !!!! Blame it on my meds!! ;)
 

mrjbinok

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#18
Well after several weeks of being my own doctor, I finally got medications straightened out and was able to use the machine for the first time today. Now I get to explain to my doctors where I got my medical degree!!

I had a couple of little projects that I wanted to try out with the machine before I actually started fabricating the motor mount for my Z drive. I'm really impressed with how easy the machine is to operate. Since I am new to milling everything has a learning curve so hopefully I can get started with this mod in the next few days.

I have all of the parts that will be needed so it is just a matter of mounting it and adjusting the gear feed. After today's run I will definately want to get the Z drive done sooner than later and the addition of the X drive will not be in the not too distant future! I'm basically a lazy guy and pushing a button to move the table is a lot more enticing than cranking the table back and forth manually!
 

mrjbinok

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#19
It's been a while since I updated this thread and I am now nearly finished with the mod. To start off the nylon gears that I picked up had to be resized to fit the 3/8" motor shaft and the 5/8" mill crank shaft. Here I have turned an aluminum insert to fit. After knurling and using some handle grip cement the insert was pressed in and bored for the slip fit on the 3/8" motor shaft.

The set screws were taps for 12-32 and set screws installed and the excess was cut off and faced.
IMG_0516.JPG

The support frame was cut and machined for a nice square fit. Notice that there is a 1/8" lip on the end pieces to make it easy to align for welding.

IMG_0562.JPG
Mock up with the support taped together.

IMG_0570.JPG

After welding assembly is started.

IMG_0598.JPG

Original crank is removed.

IMG_0605.JPG

12 volt power supply is mounted to the wall abd motor assembly is trial fit on the mill.


IMG_0606.JPG
I decided on a spring loaded momentary ON-OFF-ON rotary switch and picked up a perfect box from Amazon. I wanted the box to mount at an angle so used a couple of cabinet hinges to mount. Later I locked the hinge in this position and used JB Weld to make it somewhat permanent.
IMG_0607.JPG

I've got the project running now and it works flawlessly. I'll get some updated pictures later.

The motor output speed is 100 RPM and with the gears 1:1 movement is a nice steady 4.25 inches per minute lifting, and 5.58 inches per minute lowering. The motor seems to have plenty of extra torque and runs nice and quiet. It's taken me quite a while to finish the project because of health limitations, but well worth the effort.
 

mrjbinok

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#20
The finished installation:

IMG_0620.JPG IMG_0621.JPG IMG_0623.JPG

Eventually I plan to wire the 110 volt supply for the power supply into the main control box so that I will have the emergency stop feature. I'm trying to figure out how to add a short Mp4 video to show my project in operation.
 
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wrmiller

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#21
Well done! :)
 

redneckmachinist

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#23
Sorry if I missed the reason for the gears, but had you considered a direct drive like tin barn's?

Nylon gears appear to smooth out the torque, but they seem to be a 1:1 ratio, so wonder if this DC motor could power the drive by itself?

Were the gears an Amazon investment?
 

mrjbinok

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Sorry if I missed the reason for the gears, but had you considered a direct drive like tin barn's?

Nylon gears appear to smooth out the torque, but they seem to be a 1:1 ratio, so wonder if this DC motor could power the drive by itself?

Were the gears an Amazon investment?
When I started looking at options for building my drive, looking around at the different motors was a best guess scenario as to what it would take to lift the head in regards to torque and speed. I had read that some had used a motor with output speed of around 85 RPM and they thought that it was too slow and wished that they had chosen differently.

I went with the 100 RPM motor and decided on the 1:1 ratio gearing initially just to get a starting point. My reasoning to go with gears was that if I decided to change the speed, I could change gears with less expense than the motor and potentially the entire mounting layout. Now that I have my setup operational, I can see that an increase in speed would be desirable.... at least for me. The gears were an Ebay find and the two Eaton Yale Nylon Pinion Gears cost less than $10

As far as whether or not the motor could drive direct..... I think that it could and then some. The operating voltage (output) for the power supply seems to be lower than it's rated voltage and I consider it to be the weak link in the setup. This type of power supply are a dime a dozen all over the internet, but the cheap prices equate to less voltage and current regulation under load.

Right now I will use the current setup and be satisfied with it's performance as I get used to the rest of the machine. At some point a different gear ratio and power supply changes will probably move to the top of my To-Do list. As with most projects like this, there will always be a 100 different ways of doing the same thing. This is my starting point and I hope that other members will come away with enough basic information that they will be able to see different options to build on and improve.

I really do appreciate yours and other contributors suggestions and knowledge. Having a common interest and open forum for sharing ideas and asking questions are what makes this site what it is.
 

mrjbinok

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#26
Yeah he only had the two. Really any source for nylon pinion gears will work. The crank shaft is roughly a keyed 5/8" diameter shaft and the motor shaft is a "D" shaft that is 3/8" in diameter. I cut an internal keyway on the 5/8" gear and made an insert to reduce the other gear to fit the smaller shaft. The insert was turned from aluminum stock just oversized for the OD and knurled on the lathe. I added some motorcycle handlegrip glue and pressed it in.

If you look at the video or the gear picture you'll see a slight misalignment of the two gears. This is because the mill side of the mod needs a thin spacer to correctly position the gear on the shaft and restrict the endplay. I've got it clamped down with the two set screws for now and it does the job, but a space is coming in the near future.

Jim
 

redneckmachinist

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#27
Tinbarn utube videos suggest that wiper motor has enough torque for a direct drive setup, but his Flintstone mounting system had gear reduction. PM25mv crank shaft (5/8") sticks out quite far, so your gear setup is space saving in the lateral dimension, in that the crank shaft and motor shaft overlap each other.

The ebay listing had a photo showing the EY part number as 641 2881 00 .

I've not been able to source a supplier of this gear as of yet, and wonder if anyone else reading this thread has suggestion for finding this part? You might also be interested in replacement parts if you strip a gear in the future by hitting the top detent, or crashing down into the table? ( S___ happens ?)
 

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mrjbinok

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#28
Tinbarn utube videos suggest that wiper motor has enough torque for a direct drive setup, but his Flintstone mounting system had gear reduction. PM25mv crank shaft (5/8") sticks out quite far, so your gear setup is space saving in the lateral dimension, in that the crank shaft and motor shaft overlap each other.

The ebay listing had a photo showing the EY part number as 641 2881 00 .

I've not been able to source a supplier of this gear as of yet, and wonder if anyone else reading this thread has suggestion for finding this part? You might also be interested in replacement parts if you strip a gear in the future by hitting the top detent, or crashing down into the table? ( S___ happens ?)
Not much to choose from right now on Ebay or Amazon.

I did a quick Google for "Nylon Pinion Gears" and came up with several sources... most are industrial with minimum orders, but even those will many times send out samples if asked.

This is one supplier that has a pretty extensive page of options:

https://shop.sdp-si.com/catalog?cid=p207&filter=a6:2:18.0&sort=undefined&view=table

The type of gear that you use does not have to specifically be the EY gears that I used. You should be able to get the specs for the EY gear to give you a starting point for a search. Depending on what you are able to source, adjustments can be made to the support assembly to adjust spacing that will get you to where you need to be. I actually bought the motor, then the gears.... then started figuring out what I needed to make them work together.

Your right about the mill shaft being rather long. Looking back, that was another thing I considered with my layout. I've looked at belt drives, gear drives, and combinations of both.... even adding a means of switching between the motor drive and the original hand crank. I remember the old "KISS" principle!!

As I said above the one other change I plan to do with my mod is to wire the 110volt supply voltage to the 12v power supply to the mill's emergency stop. Right now I have everything being fed from a power strip where I can kill power.
 
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WyoGreen

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#29
You know we are all machinist types with mills (at least some do) who maybe could/should make our own gears?
Just saying.........:grin:

Steve
 

redneckmachinist

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#30
You know we are all machinist types with mills (at least some do) who maybe could/should make our own gears?
Just saying.........:grin:

Steve

simple as:


and:


But:

The EY nylon hoist gears are different kettle of clams, these are wear resistant and can take more long term stress?
 
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