[4]

Setup Help With Acer Dynamic 1340g

[3]

Keep trying to convert the Controls or throw in the towel and use the VFD only?

  • CONVERT - resistence is futile

    Votes: 2 100.0%
  • Lose the old and busted and stick with the new hotness -

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    2
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Mr.Miz

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#1
Hello! The Acer Dynamic is my first lathe and I just purchased it about a week ago. I'm attempting to get my shop updated with a new 40 amp circuit, 220v, single phase, outlet to the lathe (This is what I have available currently). I have the power wiring, and conduit almost done. I've ordered and SMVector VFD (ESV222N02YXB) and it should be here in about 3 days.
View media item 95642
I have removed the control panel and was hoping to do a conversion very similar to the PM1340gt(http://www.hobby-machinist.com/thre...g-the-stock-control-board-and-switches.49022/) conversion on this site, but it's sounding like most people don't trust the contactors on used machines. Even in the condition of the posted pictures.
View media item 95648View media item 95647
I'm having a really hard time accepting the VFD as my primary control and scrapping the front panel controls. I will probably wire in a speed pot no matter what, but it's really hard for me to just "lose" the e-stop, foot break, and the rest of the controls on the machine. Maybe some of you can convince me I'm nuts?
View media item 95645
I think I'm going to plug away with the conversion just as a matter of practice. I only learn by doing and I've got a lot to learn.
Here are my goals:
  1. Add a new circuit to the shop (50% done already). I have the wire, a 40 amp dual pole breaker, and most of the conduit already for older projects so I'm harnessing my inner cable monkey.
  2. Move the lathe into place ( I've got it in the shop but it's still on the pallet). I've got a small loader but the lift capacity on it is only 1000lbs and this thing is 1500lbs so I need ideas? I do also have access to a massive loader but it's too big to fit in the shop but it can get the bucket in the doorway.
  3. Setup the VFD for Motor control. MAKE IT SPIN!
  4. The dreaded conversion. Get Lathe Controls working. E-stop, foot break, FWD-RWD, Jog, and add a speed pot the front.
  5. Get pilot and work lamp working
I'm going to eliminate the Coolant pump for now. My VFD is only rated 3hp and my motor is 3hp and the coolant pump is 1/8th. I'll come back to it once I'm actually turning and look at just getting a single phase 1/8hp motor or something like it. Let me know if there's a reason to go back and look at this again now?

Other small related projects are a VFD enclosure, Lathe cover (probably just plastic/tarp to start), and maybe a VFD stand. I'm a bit of a blended child of a wood elf and an iron dwarf so needless to say if there isn't wood floating in the shop air, then it's sparks and weld spatter. Sorry for the long first post. I just wanted to get started so the questions can be shorter from here on out. Let me know if I should include anything else for reference. Any advice you can give is appreciated as well as links for me to research. I'm going to need some convincing on the controls so throw me your opening arguments ;-)
 

Stob

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#3
Same gear box as my E lathe. I only have one lever at the top, which switches between low and high range. Low goes from zero to 300, high range 300- to top end, something like 1200 rpms. The controls are the same except for that white light. That is where my variable speed knob is. Don't know if it's a pot or what.

Once you get it running, do a check on threading. The threading chart on mine is wrong. I do a lot of threading between 14 and 32 tpi, and the letters are wrong, meaning A B C D settings shown aren't correct. I'll write down what is correct on mine this weekend if I remember and let you know. Maybe they corrected yours, but I talked with a dealer in Richmond VA and he sent me pics of what the new ones show, they are still wrong.
 

Sandia

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#4
Congrats again Mr. Miz.

One thing for sure, you want to keep the foot brake and e-stop. My E-Lathe is a 3 phase vector drive like the one Stob in above post has. I don't use the coolant pump on mine, opting for a mister setup instead.

As for the threading chart, I have not noticed any discrepancies on it ? All the threads I have ever cut were fine.Stob, it would be interesting to compare the charts at some point.

Mr. Miz, as for unloading the lathe, can you set it on the floor with an engine hoist and place sections of metal pipe under it and roll it to location. That is usually the simple, and least expensive way to do it. I placed mine with a forklift as I have a fairly large shop and big shop doors.
 

Stob

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#5
I will take a pic of my thread chart too, post it all later.
 

Sandia

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#6
I will take a pic of my thread chart too, post it all later.
Thanks Stob, would love to compare.

Hope we didn't take over Mr.Miz thread .
 

mksj

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#7
Welcome to the forum. So a few thoughts on how to proceed.
1. There should be no change to the front controls and their basic functions, but if they get replaced depends on your how you want to proceed. You normally do not use the VFD panel controls in this application. The coolant pump runs at a fixed speed, so is not amenable to being run off of the VFD outputs, and in general you have two options: get an inexpensive VFD and use it to drive the 3 phase coolant pump at 60Hz, or replace the coolant pump with a 240VAC single phase version, the latter being the simplest and probably the cheaper of the two. You can still use the coolant contactor/thermal overload but the overload may need to be set to something like 0.45A since the current would be higher for single phase.

2. As previously mentioned, I do not recommend using used contactors for low level signals. I have tried this in the past and either it didn't work or the connection was intermittent.

3. In the simplest iteration, you could just replace the two main motor contactors with new 24VAC mini contactors that have the same NO/NC configuration. Remove the high voltage connections, reconnect the 24VAC connections and use them to switch the VFD RUN and forward/reverse inputs. For safety I would use two of its NO contacts on each contactor, terminal #4 of the VFD would connect to L1 and L2 of both the forward and reverse contactors, T1 of both contactors would go to VFD terminal 1 which issues the (start/run command), L2 of the forward contactor goes to terminal 13A (forward) and L2 of the reverse contactor goes to 13B (reverse command). Everything should work the same as before, two contactors will run about $30. https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Motor_Controls/WEG_Electric_Miniature_Contactors_(4-Pole)/9_Amp_(AC3)#Nominal_Coil_Voltage_s="24+VAC+(60Hz)"&start=0
RUN.jpg
The only wrinkle is dealing with the mechanical braking, since the VFD will want to brake the machine as it is programmed. So you can try it first try it and see how it works, you can disconnect the mechanical brake, or you can get a dual pole switch for the foot brake switch. With a dual pole switch, one NC switch block is connected as it was previously, when you press on the foot brake it goes open and cuts power to the run contactor. The other contact block which is NO is connected to the VFD input common (terminal 4) and would go to one of the inputs and be programmed to freewheel (not brake) the VFD. I can give some help on suggested VFD programming once you decide what you want to do.

4. You would need to add a speed pot on the front panel, anything in the 2-5K range, linear pot with a 3/8" panel hole. It would be connected to terminals 2, 5 and 6.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/A-B-Allen-B...entiometer-10-TOL-2000-2k-OHM-J-/302165595272
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CLAROSTAT-JA1N056S502UA-5K-5000-Ohm-2-25W-POTENTIOMETER-NOS-/332027874870

5. You can replace the the current control board and use standard relays, and this would require a simple 12 or 24VDC power supply to run everything, it could also be used for your light which is 24V. The down side is it is pretty much a complete system rebuild and wiring specific to your VFD. I can draw up something for you, but it is time consuming, so let me know if it is something you are interested in.

Mark
 

Mr.Miz

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#8
Same gear box as my E lathe. I only have one lever at the top, which switches between low and high range. Low goes from zero to 300, high range 300- to top end, something like 1200 rpms. The controls are the same except for that white light. That is where my variable speed knob is. Don't know if it's a pot or what.

Once you get it running, do a check on threading. The threading chart on mine is wrong. I do a lot of threading between 14 and 32 tpi, and the letters are wrong, meaning A B C D settings shown aren't correct. I'll write down what is correct on mine this weekend if I remember and let you know. Maybe they corrected yours, but I talked with a dealer in Richmond VA and he sent me pics of what the new ones show, they are still wrong.
I suspect it is wrong too, the previous owner (Bass Pro's Gunsmith shop) almost completely rubbed off the thread chart. It's the only part of the lathe that looked like it got used. So it might make sense if it was wrong and they rubbed it off so it wouldn't get used. Thanks for the tip! I already have some threading projects lined up so I'll pay closer attention to that.
 

Mr.Miz

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#9
Congrats again Mr. Miz.

One thing for sure, you want to keep the foot brake and e-stop. My E-Lathe is a 3 phase vector drive like the one Stob in above post has. I don't use the coolant pump on mine, opting for a mister setup instead.

As for the threading chart, I have not noticed any discrepancies on it ? All the threads I have ever cut were fine.Stob, it would be interesting to compare the charts at some point.

Mr. Miz, as for unloading the lathe, can you set it on the floor with an engine hoist and place sections of metal pipe under it and roll it to location. That is usually the simple, and least expensive way to do it. I placed mine with a forklift as I have a fairly large shop and big shop doors.
That's actually a FANTASTIC idea! I didn't even think about that trick! I can borrow the big cat loader and lift it off the pallet and then I have some square tube, and round tube. Laid out for it. I haven't had to move any heavy equipment since I was a teen so good old tricks are like new to me again.
 

Mr.Miz

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#10
Welcome to the forum. So a few thoughts on how to proceed.
1. There should be no change to the front controls and their basic functions, but if they get replaced depends on your how you want to proceed. You normally do not use the VFD panel controls in this application. The coolant pump runs at a fixed speed, so is not amenable to being run off of the VFD outputs, and in general you have two options: get an inexpensive VFD and use it to drive the 3 phase coolant pump at 60Hz, or replace the coolant pump with a 240VAC single phase version, the latter being the simplest and probably the cheaper of the two. You can still use the coolant contactor/thermal overload but the overload may need to be set to something like 0.45A since the current would be higher for single phase.

2. As previously mentioned, I do not recommend using used contactors for low level signals. I have tried this in the past and either it didn't work or the connection was intermittent.

3. In the simplest iteration, you could just replace the two main motor contactors with new 24VAC mini contactors that have the same NO/NC configuration. Remove the high voltage connections, reconnect the 24VAC connections and use them to switch the VFD RUN and forward/reverse inputs. For safety I would use two of its NO contacts on each contactor, terminal #4 of the VFD would connect to L1 and L2 of both the forward and reverse contactors, T1 of both contactors would go to VFD terminal 1 which issues the (start/run command), L2 of the forward contactor goes to terminal 13A (forward) and L2 of the reverse contactor goes to 13B (reverse command). Everything should work the same as before, two contactors will run about $30. https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Motor_Controls/WEG_Electric_Miniature_Contactors_(4-Pole)/9_Amp_(AC3)#Nominal_Coil_Voltage_s="24+VAC+(60Hz)"&start=0
View attachment 142515
The only wrinkle is dealing with the mechanical braking, since the VFD will want to brake the machine as it is programmed. So you can try it first try it and see how it works, you can disconnect the mechanical brake, or you can get a dual pole switch for the foot brake switch. With a dual pole switch, one NC switch block is connected as it was previously, when you press on the foot brake it goes open and cuts power to the run contactor. The other contact block which is NO is connected to the VFD input common (terminal 4) and would go to one of the inputs and be programmed to freewheel (not brake) the VFD. I can give some help on suggested VFD programming once you decide what you want to do.

4. You would need to add a speed pot on the front panel, anything in the 2-5K range, linear pot with a 3/8" panel hole. It would be connected to terminals 2, 5 and 6.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/A-B-Allen-B...entiometer-10-TOL-2000-2k-OHM-J-/302165595272
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CLAROSTAT-JA1N056S502UA-5K-5000-Ohm-2-25W-POTENTIOMETER-NOS-/332027874870

5. You can replace the the current control board and use standard relays, and this would require a simple 12 or 24VDC power supply to run everything, it could also be used for your light which is 24V. The down side is it is pretty much a complete system rebuild and wiring specific to your VFD. I can draw up something for you, but it is time consuming, so let me know if it is something you are interested in.

Mark
Thank you!
1. I right now I'm leaving out the coolant pump with the plan to replace the motor once I'm actually up and running.
2. 3. and 4. I'll get those ordered once I have my shop wiring and the VFD in.
5. I'll save that for if I just can't wrap my head around 2,3, and 4. I may have to learn by building it from scratch but I don't want to take up your time until I've thoroughly given up on 2,3, and 4. I can't believe how helpful everybody is on this forum! I live well outside normal civilization so it is almost impossible to get local help. Everybody's willingness to help on this forum is truly appreciated.
 

Mr.Miz

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#11
Got the power done today and I'm going to try and move it into place tomorrow. I'm hoping I can get it off the pallet with the big CAT loader and sit on a bunch of 1/2 conduit I have left from the wiring. Fingers crossed.

Still waiting on the VFD. It made if from MA to IL today. Excited to get started.
 

Sandia

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#12
Got the power done today and I'm going to try and move it into place tomorrow. I'm hoping I can get it off the pallet with the big CAT loader and sit on a bunch of 1/2 conduit I have left from the wiring. Fingers crossed.

Still waiting on the VFD. It made if from MA to IL today. Excited to get started.
Miz, I'm not real sure the electrical conduit tubing is heavy wall enough. Maybe if you have several pieces it might work. I was thinking like schedule 40 black pipe. Be careful, don't want to turn it over. Lathes are very top heavy.
 

Stob

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#14
IMG_0489.jpg

The threading chart, that is wrong. Through trial and error, here is the correct settings:

14-ADRW
16-BCQX
18-BCTZ
20-BCRX
24-ACPX
28-BCRW
32-ACQX
 

Mr.Miz

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#15
Miz, I'm not real sure the electrical conduit tubing is heavy wall enough. Maybe if you have several pieces it might work. I was thinking like schedule 40 black pipe. Be careful, don't want to turn it over. Lathes are very top heavy.
Funny you should say that about it being top heavy! I got it moved to day and there were no accidents. I knew it was top heavy but I thought I had it figured out, I lifted it with the loader at the door and thought everything was great. I pulled out the pallet and for what ever reason it shifted right as I got it out from under. I almost had to change my shorts. Luckily it just tilted back a little but it was enough for me to jump. I sat it down on the 1/2" conduit and though it took a long time I rolled it into place. I have pictures I'll working getting them uploaded.

Now it's on to the VFD.
Just out of curiocity what are you all using for way oil and gear oil. The gear well is low and I need to clean and oil the ways. I was planning on just going to Tractor supply and getting some hydraulic oil but wanted to check. I can't find the oil listed in the manual for sale anywhere. It says Tellus Oil #27 for the head stock, Shell Tellus #27 for gear box( I assume it's the same), Shell Tonna #33 in the apron, and light machine oil/way lube on he ways. All I know about oil is my vehicles need it, and you shouldn't put that oil on a salad. ;-)
Let me know what you use and where you get it from..??
Pictures incoming soon.
 

mksj

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#17
A few notes on the above information. Seems to be a number of variations, and probably versions of the manual. The Acer site does have a download copy for the 1340G. The threading/feeding tables are a bit different then the picture above, so worth doing some scribe cuts on stock to verify the TPI. Manual download for the Dynamic model: http://www.aceronline.net/acergroup/manuals/manual-el-dyn1340g_1440e.pdf or for the VFD E-lathe model http://www.aceronline.net/acergroup/manuals/manual-el-el1440v.pdf . It is interesting that the thread chart for the E-Lathe (VFD) is even different then the name plate and what you have indicated. The other note is looking at the schematic for both machines and how they address the wiring when converted to VFD operation and the connections for the coolant, fan, etc. The VFD model is a real beauty and well implemented.

On the Dynamic 1340G, you can use the power light hole for the VFD pot, you will either need to make a bushing 3/8" hole to 22mm for a standard pot to fit or you can buy a 22 mm speed pot. You still need an indicator light to show that the machine is powered. I would suggested getting a lighted Jog or E stop switch and connecting the current power light 24VAC to the indicator lamp. The switches usually are standard 22mm (the E-Stop could be 30mm), so something like this switch for the Jog button could be used for both Jog and a power ON light.
https://www.automationdirect.com/ad...ushbuttons_Flush_-a-_Extended/LED/GCX1202-24L
https://www.automationdirect.com/ad...dicators/22mm_Metal/Potentiometers/ECX2300-5K
https://www.automationdirect.com/ad..._Indicators/22mm_Metal/Potentiometers/ECX2640

The oils mentioned are a bit antiquated terminology, but for the most part there are modern day ISO weight equivalents. Note that there are various nomenclature for oil viscosity and they have different properties at different temperatures, ISO, AGMA, SAE motor Oil, SAE Gear Oil, API... they use different nomenclatures and have numbers/weights are not interchangeable. It is controversial about which oils can be used in machines (lathe, mill), any oil is better than none, but try to use the appropriate oil for your type of machine to ensure its longevity. When you consider that you change the oil maybe once a year, it pays not to scrimp a few dollars to get an automotive oils instead of a proper machine oils. I have attached an updated chart which gives the recommend oils for the Acer lathes and your model.

Headstock and gearbox uses Tellus 27, the modern day would be an ISO32 or ISO 46 hydraulic or circulating gear oil, non detergent. (examples: Mobile DTE 24 or 25, Mobil DTE Light or DTE Medium). All readily available at local farm supply stores, or online.

Apron Tonna 33, is a bit of a strange duck. Normally the Tonna was Shells version of way oil, so a bit stickier. It is not uncommon to use way oil in some aprons, but in general I usually see a standard ISO 68 hydraulic/gear oil used. The equivalent would be Mobil DTE 26 hydraulic oil or Mobil heavy medium circulating gear oil which are both ISO 68.

On the ways and horizontal sliding surfaces I would recommend Vactra #2 or any ISO 68 way oil, the addition of tacifiers and film properties of way oil allow surfaces to float on each other, yet not get gummy and have chips stick to it.

Work out what you want to do sequentially, nice to see you got the machined moved without mishap. You can never be too careful, so do not rush it.
Mark

Oil Grade System.jpg
Oil Cross Reference Chart.jpg
 

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Mr.Miz

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#18
A few notes on the above information. Seems to be a number of variations, and probably versions of the manual. The Acer site does have a download copy for the 1340G. The threading/feeding tables are a bit different then the picture above, so worth doing some scribe cuts on stock to verify the TPI. Manual download for the Dynamic model: http://www.aceronline.net/acergroup/manuals/manual-el-dyn1340g_1440e.pdf or for the VFD E-lathe model http://www.aceronline.net/acergroup/manuals/manual-el-el1440v.pdf . It is interesting that the thread chart for the E-Lathe (VFD) is even different then the name plate and what you have indicated. The other note is looking at the schematic for both machines and how they address the wiring when converted to VFD operation and the connections for the coolant, fan, etc. The VFD model is a real beauty and well implemented.

On the Dynamic 1340G, you can use the power light hole for the VFD pot, you will either need to make a bushing 3/8" hole to 22mm for a standard pot to fit or you can buy a 22 mm speed pot. You still need an indicator light to show that the machine is powered. I would suggested getting a lighted Jog or E stop switch and connecting the current power light 24VAC to the indicator lamp. The switches usually are standard 22mm (the E-Stop could be 30mm), so something like this switch for the Jog button could be used for both Jog and a power ON light.
https://www.automationdirect.com/ad...ushbuttons_Flush_-a-_Extended/LED/GCX1202-24L
https://www.automationdirect.com/ad...dicators/22mm_Metal/Potentiometers/ECX2300-5K
https://www.automationdirect.com/ad..._Indicators/22mm_Metal/Potentiometers/ECX2640

The oils mentioned are a bit antiquated terminology, but for the most part there are modern day ISO weight equivalents. Note that there are various nomenclature for oil viscosity and they have different properties at different temperatures, ISO, AGMA, SAE motor Oil, SAE Gear Oil, API... they use different nomenclatures and have numbers/weights are not interchangeable. It is controversial about which oils can be used in machines (lathe, mill), any oil is better than none, but try to use the appropriate oil for your type of machine to ensure its longevity. When you consider that you change the oil maybe once a year, it pays not to scrimp a few dollars to get an automotive oils instead of a proper machine oils. I have attached an updated chart which gives the recommend oils for the Acer lathes and your model.

Headstock and gearbox uses Tellus 27, the modern day would be an ISO32 or ISO 46 hydraulic or circulating gear oil, non detergent. (examples: Mobile DTE 24 or 25, Mobil DTE Light or DTE Medium). All readily available at local farm supply stores, or online.

Apron Tonna 33, is a bit of a strange duck. Normally the Tonna was Shells version of way oil, so a bit stickier. It is not uncommon to use way oil in some aprons, but in general I usually see a standard ISO 68 hydraulic/gear oil used. The equivalent would be Mobil DTE 26 hydraulic oil or Mobil heavy medium circulating gear oil which are both ISO 68.

On the ways and horizontal sliding surfaces I would recommend Vactra #2 or any ISO 68 way oil, the addition of tacifiers and film properties of way oil allow surfaces to float on each other, yet not get gummy and have chips stick to it.

Work out what you want to do sequentially, nice to see you got the machined moved without mishap. You can never be too careful, so do not rush it.
Mark

View attachment 142767
View attachment 142770
Thanks Mark I've got some shopping to do!
 

Mr.Miz

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#19
Now for the move pictures. First off I would like to say for any of those who reach this post via google or any other method. I would NOT recommend doing it this way. This was pretty much a cobbled version and it worked without major error however there were a few seconds where I was pretty sure I was about to tip over the lathe when lifting it off the pallet. The 1/2 electrical conduit worked fine though I would not recommend that, either, as it's cumbersome. So if you have no other way I guess just be aware that this way could work but if you can find a better way do it or wait till you can.

So I borrowed a big earth mover loader and stuck the bucket in the main doors but that's all I could get in:
View media item 95659 from this picture the red line at the top is the top of the door and here you can see the bucket in the shop. Reminds me a of a T-Rex sticking it's head through a building in some big budget movie.
View media item 95660So with the bucket in I hooked it up to some straps and tried to get the straps perfectly plumb so there wouldn't be any swing.
View media item 95661View media item 95662Then I lifted. As expected the control/chuck side was heavier. I should have probably taken the chuck off to reduce the weight, but in the heat of the moment that never crossed my mind. I did put bags of pea gravel on the opposite side to try and do some counter balancing but it wasn't very effective.
View media item 95663So with the lathe off the pallet about 1/2" I removed the pallet and that's when things got scary. Everything was out of the way, but the weigh just started to tilt it back. it only slide maybe 6" but I just had to stand back and watch because there was no way I was going to put my body anywhere near it. It stopped. I checked my shorts then I put down the 1/2 conduit and lowered it on.
View media item 95664View media item 95665View media item 95666View media item 95667
Rolling it was very slow and you MUST be slow because it shouldn't be moving while your switching out the conduit from front to back. It will catch your gloves and then you have to back it off to get your glove out. Fingers beware. So after all that it is happily in it's new home.

View media item 95668
And that is my move. It was successful an the 1/2 conduit was fine, but don't do it the way I did. Be smarter.
 

Mr.Miz

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#20
Welcome to the forum. So a few thoughts on how to proceed.
1. There should be no change to the front controls and their basic functions, but if they get replaced depends on your how you want to proceed. You normally do not use the VFD panel controls in this application. The coolant pump runs at a fixed speed, so is not amenable to being run off of the VFD outputs, and in general you have two options: get an inexpensive VFD and use it to drive the 3 phase coolant pump at 60Hz, or replace the coolant pump with a 240VAC single phase version, the latter being the simplest and probably the cheaper of the two. You can still use the coolant contactor/thermal overload but the overload may need to be set to something like 0.45A since the current would be higher for single phase.

2. As previously mentioned, I do not recommend using used contactors for low level signals. I have tried this in the past and either it didn't work or the connection was intermittent.

3. In the simplest iteration, you could just replace the two main motor contactors with new 24VAC mini contactors that have the same NO/NC configuration. Remove the high voltage connections, reconnect the 24VAC connections and use them to switch the VFD RUN and forward/reverse inputs. For safety I would use two of its NO contacts on each contactor, terminal #4 of the VFD would connect to L1 and L2 of both the forward and reverse contactors, T1 of both contactors would go to VFD terminal 1 which issues the (start/run command), L2 of the forward contactor goes to terminal 13A (forward) and L2 of the reverse contactor goes to 13B (reverse command). Everything should work the same as before, two contactors will run about $30. https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Motor_Controls/WEG_Electric_Miniature_Contactors_(4-Pole)/9_Amp_(AC3)#Nominal_Coil_Voltage_s="24+VAC+(60Hz)"&start=0
View attachment 142515
The only wrinkle is dealing with the mechanical braking, since the VFD will want to brake the machine as it is programmed. So you can try it first try it and see how it works, you can disconnect the mechanical brake, or you can get a dual pole switch for the foot brake switch. With a dual pole switch, one NC switch block is connected as it was previously, when you press on the foot brake it goes open and cuts power to the run contactor. The other contact block which is NO is connected to the VFD input common (terminal 4) and would go to one of the inputs and be programmed to freewheel (not brake) the VFD. I can give some help on suggested VFD programming once you decide what you want to do.

4. You would need to add a speed pot on the front panel, anything in the 2-5K range, linear pot with a 3/8" panel hole. It would be connected to terminals 2, 5 and 6.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/A-B-Allen-B...entiometer-10-TOL-2000-2k-OHM-J-/302165595272
http://www.ebay.com/itm/CLAROSTAT-JA1N056S502UA-5K-5000-Ohm-2-25W-POTENTIOMETER-NOS-/332027874870

5. You can replace the the current control board and use standard relays, and this would require a simple 12 or 24VDC power supply to run everything, it could also be used for your light which is 24V. The down side is it is pretty much a complete system rebuild and wiring specific to your VFD. I can draw up something for you, but it is time consuming, so let me know if it is something you are interested in.

Mark
Hey Mark I just wanted to confirm the 2 contactors you linked me are CWC09-00-40V04 and CWC09-00-22V04? 1 X 4 N.O. and 1 X 2 N.O. 2 N.C. I'm not familiar with the terms at all so I want to make sure I get the right parts.
 

mksj

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#21
You need to see the configuration of the 2 contactors you currently have in the machine, I would guess they are either 4 NO OR they could be 3 NO and one NC. The NC is usually wired to the 24VAC and shuts off the opposing contactor when activated. Then I would use a 3NO and 1NC contactor. WEG Electric CWC series miniature contactor, 16 amps, 3 N.O. power poles, coil voltage 24VAC, 1 N.C. auxiliary contact Model CWC016-01-30V04 https://www.automationdirect.com/ad...tactors_(3-Pole)/16_Amp_(AC3)/CWC016-01-30V04
The way the schematic it looks like 3NO which are each phase of the motor and one NC which feeds 24VAC coil power to the other contactor. You would need two contactors to replace the Forward/Reverse. The idea would be to srip the HV L1-L3 and T1-T3 and the thermal bypass for the main motor, but keep the low voltage 24VAC the same. Please check what you have, I cannot tell from the picture above.

Regards,
Mark
 

Sandia

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#22
IMG_0489.jpg

The threading chart, that is wrong. Through trial and error, here is the correct settings:

14-ADRW
16-BCQX
18-BCTZ
20-BCRX
24-ACPX
28-BCRW
32-ACQX
Stob, as you can see, the threading chart on my E-Mill is totally different than yours ?? Go figure. I have never had any trouble single pointing threads although I have not used all on the chart.


IMG_0808.JPG
 

Mr.Miz

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#23
You need to see the configuration of the 2 contactors you currently have in the machine, I would guess they are either 4 NO OR they could be 3 NO and one NC. The NC is usually wired to the 24VAC and shuts off the opposing contactor when activated. Then I would use a 3NO and 1NC contactor. WEG Electric CWC series miniature contactor, 16 amps, 3 N.O. power poles, coil voltage 24VAC, 1 N.C. auxiliary contact Model CWC016-01-30V04 https://www.automationdirect.com/ad...tactors_(3-Pole)/16_Amp_(AC3)/CWC016-01-30V04
The way the schematic it looks like 3NO which are each phase of the motor and one NC which feeds 24VAC coil power to the other contactor. You would need two contactors to replace the Forward/Reverse. The idea would be to srip the HV L1-L3 and T1-T3 and the thermal bypass for the main motor, but keep the low voltage 24VAC the same. Please check what you have, I cannot tell from the picture above.

Regards,
Mark
Ok mark it looks like they are 2 Teco CN-16's With a Teco CNA-111s attached to the side. If I'm understanding the terms correctly there are 2 NO's on the Teco CN-16 and 2 on the CNA-111s for a total of 4. The NC's are 2 on the CN-16 and 2 on the CNA-111s as well. I will attach better pictures of how they are wired. Here's the links to new ones if it helps:
CN-16's
http://www.ebay.com/itm/TAIAN-MOTOR...KEN-THERMAL-OVERLOAD-BTH-18T2H22/122042866062
CNA-111s:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1PCS-NEW-TECO-CNA-111S-Ac-contactor-/371527223137

Uploading better pictures of the contactors next.
 

Mr.Miz

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#24
View media item 95669see if that helps hopefully at this resolution you can seem them well enough. I have higher res photos on my Google drive.
actually now that I look at it it looks like the CN-16's don't have any NO's only the CNA-111's have them so 4 NC's and 2 NO's I was confusing the 24vac A1 and A2 terminals at the bottom with the NO's.
Ok so loosely following the instructionsfor the PM1340GT you have out there Mark I think I have everything wired IF I was going to use the existing contactors. I don't think I will I just though it would be good practice/learning if I did the wiring. The PM1340GT uses a relay and my lathe has a Teco CN-11 ( 2 NO's - 0 NC's) so that's a bit confusing. Plus mine had the extra wiring for the coolant pump, but all that did was shift everything over on the numbers to 5,6,and 7.
 
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mksj

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#25
I would ignore the 1340GT wiring and trying to port everything over to yours, the wiring/terminal connections are different. The picture is still too fuzzy to make out the contator specifics. My guess is they are 3 NO and one auxiliary which is a NC, the Teco model number would be CN-16 3atb if such. These should be a replacement http://www.factorymation.com/CU-22-B6 as they have both a NC and NO auxiliary contacts. When replacing them you need to match up the red control wiring with the same terminals and auxiliary NC/NO connections. If there is a an additional contact block on the side of your CU-16's that could also be used, they switch the 24 VAC. Otherwise I would recommend trying to get the same contactor for the CN-16's as the model number you have this information would be on the side. You leave the CN-11's and all the other terminal connections to the board with the exception of the high voltage wiring. You could leave the current contactors rewire everything so it checks out and then replace the the CN-16 contactors at a later time. Often the upper body of the contactor is removable and can also be replaced separate from the coil assembly.

1. Remove the black high voltage black wires as shown in the purple circles. Power 240 VAC will come in to the R and S to the fuses, the power from the fuses (3 black wires connect to the reverse contactor) will be redirected to connect directly to the coolant contactor (shown in yellow). At the coolant contactor there are two red wires labeled R and S, either leave these connected to the coolant contactor or connect them directly to the R and S at the fuse connections, they provide power to the transformer. If needed, I recommend just replacing the coolant pump itself with a single phase model at a later date. You would power it from the R (U1) and S (V1) terminals.
Mod 1.jpg

2. Remove the thermal overload OL1 on the forward CN-16 contactor and the black wires going to the main motor terminals U, V, W. There should also be two red wires going to the motor thermal overload OL1 and it should be a NC connection. These two wires need to be connected together after you remove the thermal overload.
Shematic.jpg
After making the changes, I would power up the system before connecting the VFD to make sure the contactors are closing and the controls work as before.

3. Then Connect L1 on the forward contactor (one which had the thermal overload relay) to VFD P24 and T1 to VFD input 1 (forward) and Connect VFD P24 to L1 on the reverse contactor (one which had the thermal overload relay) and T1 to VFD input 2 (reverse).

4. Power going to the VFD could be picked up from the R and S terminals after fuses, or you can have separate fusing/breaker in another electrical box. Motor terminals from the VFD go directly to the same motor terminals as before on the motor. If the motor is running in the wrong direction, just switch any of the two motor terminal connections at the motor only. The VFD should have an external braking resistor, there is just too much momentum in the system for the internal braking resistor to handle. Programming parameters would be similar to what I posted for the PM1340GT, BUT the motor parameters (voltage, kW, poles) need to be set for your motor. The voltage is 230V A082 = 4 and the motor is 2.2kW H003 = 2.2, the default poles is 4 which is the same as your motor.

This is a general overview, it is hard to give specifics without seeing the system, hands on, so this is at your risk and assumes you have some general familiarity with electrical hookup.
 

Mr.Miz

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#26
Got a cold :disgust: taking a break from the shop. I only have a space heater out there, and it's 12 degree's. Concrete slab draws the life right out of you, especially already feeling ill. VFD should be here tomorrow. I'm rigging up a test run of the control board. Still just trying to understand how to make it all work. Going to take some pictures of the button panel next time I'm out there.

Any recommendations on the control wire? seems like shielded is the way to go and I have some old 2 wire shielded 22awg from a friend who wired refrigeration units for Walmart. Actually I have a lot of it almost a full 1000 ft. roll. I'm sure the VFD manual will probably say what to use but it would be nice to use up some of that if possible. Google sent me to "Wire and Cable Your Way" for VFD wire 16awg 4 conductor shielded, but they have a 20 ft. minimum and it's about $53 so I'm just wondering what everybody else did.
 

Mr.Miz

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#27
I would ignore the 1340GT wiring and trying to port everything over to yours, the wiring/terminal connections are different. The picture is still too fuzzy to make out the contator specifics. My guess is they are 3 NO and one auxiliary which is a NC, the Teco model number would be CN-16 3atb if such. These should be a replacement http://www.factorymation.com/CU-22-B6 as they have both a NC and NO auxiliary contacts. When replacing them you need to match up the red control wiring with the same terminals and auxiliary NC/NO connections. If there is a an additional contact block on the side of your CU-16's that could also be used, they switch the 24 VAC. Otherwise I would recommend trying to get the same contactor for the CN-16's as the model number you have this information would be on the side. You leave the CN-11's and all the other terminal connections to the board with the exception of the high voltage wiring. You could leave the current contactors rewire everything so it checks out and then replace the the CN-16 contactors at a later time. Often the upper body of the contactor is removable and can also be replaced separate from the coil assembly.

1. Remove the black high voltage black wires as shown in the purple circles. Power 240 VAC will come in to the R and S to the fuses, the power from the fuses (3 black wires connect to the reverse contactor) will be redirected to connect directly to the coolant contactor (shown in yellow). At the coolant contactor there are two red wires labeled R and S, either leave these connected to the coolant contactor or connect them directly to the R and S at the fuse connections, they provide power to the transformer. If needed, I recommend just replacing the coolant pump itself with a single phase model at a later date. You would power it from the R (U1) and S (V1) terminals.
View attachment 142878

2. Remove the thermal overload OL1 on the forward CN-16 contactor and the black wires going to the main motor terminals U, V, W. There should also be two red wires going to the motor thermal overload OL1 and it should be a NC connection. These two wires need to be connected together after you remove the thermal overload.
View attachment 142879
After making the changes, I would power up the system before connecting the VFD to make sure the contactors are closing and the controls work as before.

3. Then Connect L1 on the forward contactor (one which had the thermal overload relay) to VFD P24 and T1 to VFD input 1 (forward) and Connect VFD P24 to L1 on the reverse contactor (one which had the thermal overload relay) and T1 to VFD input 2 (reverse).

4. Power going to the VFD could be picked up from the R and S terminals after fuses, or you can have separate fusing/breaker in another electrical box. Motor terminals from the VFD go directly to the same motor terminals as before on the motor. If the motor is running in the wrong direction, just switch any of the two motor terminal connections at the motor only. The VFD should have an external braking resistor, there is just too much momentum in the system for the internal braking resistor to handle. Programming parameters would be similar to what I posted for the PM1340GT, BUT the motor parameters (voltage, kW, poles) need to be set for your motor. The voltage is 230V A082 = 4 and the motor is 2.2kW H003 = 2.2, the default poles is 4 which is the same as your motor.

This is a general overview, it is hard to give specifics without seeing the system, hands on, so this is at your risk and assumes you have some general familiarity with electrical hookup.
Thanks by the way Mike. I've never done a rewire of contactors before, everything I've done has been new wire and just follow the diagram. This will be the first time I've ever had to understand what is actually happening rather than just following a diagram. It's good for me.
 

mksj

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#28
The VFD communications cable I would us 4 or 5 wire cable 22AWG (18-22AWG is the recommend size), shielded is better, but probably not a big deal if a short run under 5-6 feet. Do NOT run any of these cables next to or tied to the motor cable, keep them at least 6" apart when they are run in parallel (you can get noise contamination from the motor cable). The VFD controls need at least 3 wires, and if you modify the JOG to be run by the VFD you will need another wire. On the speed pot you need a minimum of 3 wires, once again shielded is preferred but not necessary. The VFD uses push in connectors, I use small round ferrules on my VFD communication cables, other wise you may need to tin them. I do not recommend solid core wire. The wire gets pushed into the respective contact hole and I give a slight tug when pushed in to seat the wire. To remove a wire you need to press on the little orange tab with a very small screw driver, push the wire slightly in (to release the jaws and then gently pull out the wire. This is in the manual and also shown in my basic install instructions.
Something like this (4 conductor shielded 20 or 22AWG) could be used for both.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/16awg-4c-Shielded-Stranded-Wire-Cable-For-CNC-Stepper-Motor-20ft-/322327127623

http://www.ebay.com/itm/22awg-4c-Sh...able-For-CNC-Stepper-Motor-25ft-/322327124892

VFD to motor is 3 phase and can be 12 or 14AWG 600V rated cable 4 conductor, you need 3 wires (U, V, W) plus a separate ground. If long runs then I use shielded, but probably fine to use unshielded.
Mark
20160731_162644.jpg

20160731_162029.jpg
20160731_163235.jpg
 
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Mr.Miz

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#30
A few updates.

First off I've temporarily given up on getting the control board working as it came with the lathe. I've tested the contacts and they are working individually, but I can't seem to get the switching right. So my goal is back to just getting the lathe working with the VFD and then circling back around and rewiring the existing contactors to give me switch control back at the lathe. When I do circle back around if I can get to the point where I understand how to wire the forward, reverse, and jog then I will look at replacing the contactors. ( I think the jog is actually whats giving me most of the trouble right now because I still don't quit understand how it's suppose to work and why). At this point I've completely removed all the wires from the contactors anyway during my troubleshooting so I'm basically starting from scratch. So not ideal, but I'm learning a lot so it's good for me, and if I can't figure it out I can just settle for VFD control and find a way to mount the VFD closer to the lathe.

Second a word on oil. HOLY COW :dejected: My thinking was I would just write down the oil I needed for the lathe and go into a hardware store and get it... NOPE! I went in the store with my list as ISO 32, 46, and 68 non-detergent oil. Seemed logical to me but I knew I was in trouble when both the hardware stores I went to replied with "we have motor oil". Nothing I found had anything labeled non-detergent and for some reason ISO oil is very rare in my area (maybe it's a standardization in some place other then where I am?) I found 1 gallon of ISO32 oil at Ace hardware http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1415921 which both the website and the store are amazingly under detailed. So then I decided to try Murdoch's which is the next closest store. Which they had ISO 68 http://www.murdochs.com/shop/lube-king-iso-68-heavy-hydraulic-fluid/ but nothing else that resembled my list on the shelves. Once again at both places the staff wasn't even remotely helpful. I never found anything ISO 46 and Non-detergent oil seems to be holy grail quest in my area. I did ask if or where I could find Mobile DTE 24 or 25, Mobil DTE Light or DTE Medium and that was basically like speaking Latin to a 4 year old. Response - "We have motor oil?"

Third I've made a project box out of ply and Acrylic for the VFD. We'll see how it holds together I'll try and get some pictures up this weekend. -update -1-29-17 = while the Acrylic looks awesome I used some really thin stuff I had lying around and it didn't hold up as I was riveting a door on the front. Lesson learned - buy thickers stuff or go with ply on the sides and acrylic for the door. I may redo the box later.
 
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