Shars Carbide Tipped Tools Bits - Comments & Reviews

Hi everyone,

thanks for the input.

After reading a few comments I might actually get everyone to grind at least one tool. Handy skill to have and it should give them something to do for 20 minutes while I do 1 on 1 with someone on the lathe.

I agree brazed might not be the best or even perfect option but it is efficient from a time perspective. Thanks for the tip on the Micro 100's DB. They're kind of pricey up here but I'll keep my eyes open if they pop up on Black Friday. Thanks for the link Mikey. One of our members orders alot of stuff of Ali, I'll get him to check that out.
 
This is some great learning for me. Im have a lathe that Im fixing but have never used one before and all I have is carbide tooling that I have purchased. My dad has some old HSS pieces from back in the day of gunsmithing. I guess I'll need to get those from him and learn about HSS
 
Hi Guys,

Ok ! I do have strong views on this ! Most of you guys are looking at it from the experienced point of view ! We are talking here about newbies, people that have signed up to learn about how to use a lathe and what is required in order to do so.

Giving, selling, or what ever, a set of carbide tools is not going to teach them why the work that they are producing is not what they are expecting !

Yes carbide and insert tooling has a place to fill and does it very well. But ask yourself the question from a newbie point of view, "I've three choices, what do I do with them, why do I need to use carbide."

Just look at and read the threads on these forums. Look at the questions from the people that come here looking for help and advice ! Its the experienced hands that are providing the information that is teaching them. I agree that it is their choice whether they take that information, and listen to the voices of experience or not.
 
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DavidMTL said:
We'd like to offer a small starter pack of tools which are affordable but also fairly functional.
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DavidMTL said:
We want to keep the barrier to entry low but still get the job done.
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David, depending on the objective and scope of the course, I would expect that a small set of HSS tools already ground to basic profiles would be the most pleasant option. Learners are usually very hard on tools and HSS can be reground many times so it is cost effective. Touching up a tool is a basic chore that is unavoidable so needs to be learned early on.

Grinding tools from a blank is important to learn eventually but it should be a course of its own. It will have more meaning if the student has some turning experience. Starting an introductory course by having a student grind a few HSS blanks to shape might become a barrier and dampen interest before they have even made a chip.

Avoiding carbide tools at the freshman level is not anti-carbide. Carbide tools have their place but there is a learning curve involved which is best left to a more advanced level.
 
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I would have to agree with those that suggest starting out with HSS tool blanks. Back n the dark ages when I got into the business the first instructor in the first course I ever took started by handing out tool blanks to be sharpened. He had about a dozen models of different profiles made from 2x4s. They were large enough that everyone could see the profile that was needed to make decent cuts.

Each student was required to grind the blank and use it on upcoming projects. The instructor would inspect each tool as the process progressed and point out what needed to be done to get the proper geometry. Along with having the pride in making the tool to do the job the students also learned what profile was necessary for different materials and operations. Over the length of the course the tooling was used on dozens of occasions. Should something happen that a students tool wasn't getting a good cut or a good finish they could now recognize that the tool had worn or been damaged and would be able to correct the profile.

Starting with premade tooling eliminates this part of the learning process. The student will be less likely to understand why the tool needs to have a certain profile and why it won't cut properly. In addition they will have no idea how to correct the situation.

Grinding the tools up front does take some time and patience. It does however pay off down the road. Once a student learns what will cut and what won't they will better understand what speeds and feeds will work without damaging the tooling or the part. Even if the tooling does get damaged the student will know how to restore it to working order. Once the grinding technique is perfected the student can make just about any profile desired.

Don't get me wrong I do use all kinds of tooling as the job requires. I do use HSS, Inserts, and Brazed Carbide. The vast majority of the time HSS is the preferred tooling for the reasons mentioned above. It works well on almost any material from tool steel to brass. It's inexpensive and easy to resharpen or reprofile once you learn how. Rather than needing a dozen different tools to make an individual part a single tool can be reprofiled. A brazed carbide tool has a working edge from about 1/4" to 1/2" long depending on the size of the shank. A HSS too can be resharpened and reprofiled until it's so short it can't reach the work piece when inserted in the tool holder.

To me the advantages of carbide are that it will cut at higher speeds reducing the time needed to make a part. It can also be purchased in just about any profile desired. These are big plusses when time is money. All the time previously spent running at lower speeds and making tooling can now be used to produce more parts and generate more income. To me it's more important for the hobbyist to learn "how to" than the "how fast".
 
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Tozguy said:
David, could you elaborate on the context of these courses? Are the prospective students heading for a career in machining or are they looking for a pleasant pastime or something else?
How many students for how many grinders?

In the meantime I submit this for your consideration

https://www.travers.com/8-piece-high-speed-steel-lathe-tool-sets/p/82833/
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Looking at the above mentioned tool sets the 1/4" set of 8 retails for $77.99, the 5/16" set retails for $89.60 , and the 3/8" set retails for $130.91.

By comparison 8 of the 1/4" M35 blanks retail for $17.60 @ $2.20 ea., 8 of the 5/16 M35 blanks retail for $17.60 @ $2.20 ea., and 8 of the 3/8" tool blanks retail for $31.20 @ $3.90 ea.

https://www.victornet.com/category/Regular-Length-HS-Square-Tool-Bits/534.html

You could purchase over 34, 1/4" blanks for the price of a single preground tool set, over 30, 5/16" blanks for the price of a single preground tool set, and over 33, 3/8" blanks for a single set of preground tools.

Each student could practice grinding anywhere from 30 t0 34 blanks (depending on size) to create 8 working pieces of tooling for the price of an 8 piece preground set
 
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My limited understanding of maker spaces is that you pay a fee and go in there to use the machines. You must be proficient/safe on any machine you use. If you are not then you must take a course to learn, and then demonstrate, basic safety and proficiency skills before you're allowed to use the machine. The instructors are almost always volunteers. Fees are supposed to go toward paying the rent and utilities, not profit.

The instructor typically makes up the course curriculum and determines what adequate proficiency looks like. This is not only to protect the student but to make damned sure they don't wreck the machine, which is usually donated to the space. In the space I visited, the goal of the instructor I saw was not to turn you into a machinist; it was to make sure you knew enough about the machine to be safe enough to turn his back on and that you wouldn't crash the saddle into the chuck. What I saw was very fundamental but adequate to the purpose of the space. Much was left for the student to learn on their own, including grinding lathe tools. For the class, the instructor provided brazed carbide tools that were used on the lathe during instruction; he did not provide them to each student. Students typically are required to provide their own consumables.

I'm sure David will be along to illuminate us but from what little I know of maker spaces, vocational training is not the goal. Again, they are not trying to turn you into a machinist; they are trying to make sure you are safe enough to not kill yourself (liability) and to also be sure you don't damage the machines while you're in there.
 
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What Mikey describes is an almost exact duplicate of an evening class that has been offered by our local technical college. In our case the instructor is a journeyman or higher machinist and is an employee of the school. At the beginning of each semester the class is held students take both a written and hands on test for each machine they would like to operate. If the instructor feels they are proficient the student is allowed to operate the machine with minimal supervision. If the student is new to machining the instructor will do hands on demonstrations then allow each student to attempt the same procedure with close supervision.

I took one of these evening classes several years ago when looking for a new surface grinder for my shop. There were so many machines on the market it was difficult to make a choice. One of the vendors suggested I take the course to try out the machines. The school had over a dozen different brands and models that on the shop floors. It made choosing a new machine easier in some ways and harder in others. Of course I gravitated to the fanciest most automated one in the shop. Unfortunately the pocket book couldn't afford all the bells and whistles. I ended up settling for a more basic machine. At least now I have something to look for in the future.

This particular course was intended to give prospective students a basic look at what was involved in the profession in their spare time without committing a pile of money to something they might not be interested in once they knew what the expectations were. The class is usually offered the second semester of each school year. I'm not sure if it will be offered next semester due to the huge increase in the number of students in the machining program. Since there is a waiting list to get into the program the school is expanding to late afternoon and evening classes for those enrolled in the curriculum. On one hand it would be a bit of a disappointment if it wasn't offered, while on the other hand I'm glad to see there is a renewed interest in the profession
 
BaronJ said:
Hi David,

I would start by giving each student a piece of say 3/8" square M42 HSS tool steel and teaching them how to properly grind a lathe tool !
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That's what my shop teacher did back in 1985. We used the bit we ground on the lathe and we also had to make our own set of parallels to use on the mill.
 
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