Shop Heat

Ddickey already has the tubes (hydronic) in his floor.

I would suggest the natural gas route for heating the water. The cost differential in the initial purchase cost (electric vs gas) will most likely be eroded by operating costs. However, there are advantages to electric, such as efficiency, ease of installation and (lack of) maintenance.
The natural gas will be, without question, cheaper to run over the long run. The question is how much cheaper, and that really depends on the heat load of the building (think insulation).
You could install the electric and see how it goes for a year and if the operating costs are too high then switch over to gas. Your initial cost of the electric is small and the water heater could be sold if you switch to gas.
The tube radiant heaters are a very nice route if your ceilings are tall enough, but since your tubes are already in, that probably doesn't make sense.
The "unit" heaters are, in my opinion, horrible. They are loud, move a lot of air around (thus the percieved comfort level is low) and, well, I just don't like them!
This is all from a guy that has tubes installed in my shop but not hooked up! I discovered that I have so much wood to burn on my 22 acres that I installed a wood stove. Seems like I have the small door open in my shop open a lot because it is too hot in there! Nap time then. :laughing:
 
12' ceilings. I have not installed the tubes yet but I plan on it. I really want infloor. Looks like I'll go with gas as I made a little better deal with the excavator. Will order the takagi.
Will need 1" line.
At work so gotta run.
Thanks everyone for their opinions and thoughts. Appreciate it.
 
I agree. Infloor heat is the way to go.
 
Underfloor heating is the best way to go, especially with high ceilings. As we all know heat rises and if the floor is warm every thing above it will be warm. However you can heat the upper air all you like you will never warm the floor.
 
My main concern with in floor heat is what happens if you loose the ability to heat the water during a cold spell. We have a high efficiency boiler in our home and it is great for providing all the hot water we need for both heating (in floor and forced air) and domestic use. In the house we run it year round and if it ever fails we will have an emergency call to Kevin our HVAC guy.

Gas is much better for this use because it keeps coming even if the electricity goes out. I have a generator that will run the electronics on the boiler, circulation pumps and the forced air fan. It would not run an electric water heater. My shop in Michigan is in our attached garage and a small infrared gas heater keeps the garage ~40 deg F in the winter, I turn it up as needed. I previously had a 40 x 60 commercial pole barn with an infrared tube heater (natural gas).

If I was building another shop in that climate (close to but not quite as cold as Minnesota) I would want to be able to shut everything down should I decide to head to Florida or Arizona for a month or two. If I had water in the floor it would need to be drained and winterized before I could leave because not only would I not want the expense of running heat while I wasn't there, I wouldn't want to have the heat malfunction and ruin my hydronic system from freezing.

In my experience having the floor heated is a non-issue, Muck boots keep my feet plenty warm in the northern climate and I normally stand on foam mats when I'm running a machine anyway.

So, if you're installing in-floor heating make sure to ask your contractor about draining and winterizing the system. Also, it might be worthwhile doing a cost comparison between running heat full time vs. just when you need it.

Just my .02 cents.


John
 
You should not ever have to drain and winterize the in floor system. Every system I have had has anti freeze in it. Not the same stuff as in your car but a product that is made for hydronic heating. It will keep your floor protected down to a temperature that most likely you will never see. Remember that the ground temperature at 5 feet down will have an approximately 3 month lag, so in an enclosed building you would have to be gone quite a while for the floor temp to get to +5 to 0F or so. You do lose a little transfer efficiency by adding anti freeze but it is minimal; somewhere in the neighborhood of 10% loss at a 50% concentration.
Also, the PEX tubing that is used in these systems is VERY robust and resilient. The chance of it freezing and bursting in the concrete slab is very remote. The greatest chance of failure in a PEX system is in the connections, which will be none in the concrete slab.

Anti Freeze in Hydronic systems

Heating boiler anti freeze (This one is geared more towards baseboard type of heat)

Menards Cyro-Tek Hydronic heating anti freeze
 
Regarding PEX and Freeze bursting. I run 1" PEX from two of my above ground water storage tanks. The PEX runs about 50' all above ground. I never drain the lines. In the winter it freezes as you would expect but has never burst. Once the weather warms up, the ice melts and the water starts to flow again. Of course, I have not idea how it would behave if embedded in concrete. Love PEX.
 
matthewsx said:
My main concern with in floor heat is what happens if you loose the ability to heat the water during a cold spell. We have a high efficiency boiler in our home and it is great for providing all the hot water we need for both heating (in floor and forced air) and domestic use. In the house we run it year round and if it ever fails we will have an emergency call to Kevin our HVAC guy.

Gas is much better for this use because it keeps coming even if the electricity goes out. I have a generator that will run the electronics on the boiler, circulation pumps and the forced air fan. It would not run an electric water heater. My shop in Michigan is in our attached garage and a small infrared gas heater keeps the garage ~40 deg F in the winter, I turn it up as needed. I previously had a 40 x 60 commercial pole barn with an infrared tube heater (natural gas).

If I was building another shop in that climate (close to but not quite as cold as Minnesota) I would want to be able to shut everything down should I decide to head to Florida or Arizona for a month or two. If I had water in the floor it would need to be drained and winterized before I could leave because not only would I not want the expense of running heat while I wasn't there, I wouldn't want to have the heat malfunction and ruin my hydronic system from freezing.

In my experience having the floor heated is a non-issue, Muck boots keep my feet plenty warm in the northern climate and I normally stand on foam mats when I'm running a machine anyway.

So, if you're installing in-floor heating make sure to ask your contractor about draining and winterizing the system. Also, it might be worthwhile doing a cost comparison between running heat full time vs. just when you need it.

Just my .02 cents.

That is why my system has 4 different ways of heating the water, because my primary heat is from a wood burning stove, and as my wife pointed out what happens if I get sick or injured and can't cut or carry wood, I replied then it's her job, but seriously if we can't use the wood burner then we have gas as the main backup, the solar and off peak electric are more supplementry heat sources it can't run on those alone. It is my intention to run it on the gas when I'm too old to run the wood burner.

Also regarding frozen pipes. it won't happen it never gets below 0c here. The biggest climate problem we have here is heat. when the power goes out and its 45c that is why I have a backup gen set capable of running the A/C plus the fridges and freezers.



John
Click to expand...
 
I love PEX too:grin:

Bought my crimpers for doing refurb on the Airstream trailer I had. I put it in my upstairs bathroom and I do believe it will survive sub-zero temps but if I know that's what's coming I will drain it and fill with anti-freeze. Not exactly sure what's in the system in my home, I think it's water and will treat it accordingly.

But, for a shop it seems like an unnecessary risk and expense. I have my own experience with both systems and for me I wouldn't put pipes in a cement slab. Conduit for power? Sure.... Having power, or even air coming up in the middle of the shop is nice. Heating up a large mass of concrete to provide heat for a workshop just seems like overkill. Yes, I did evaluate it for my previous shop and when I ran the numbers it didn't make sense, just like putting in a floor drain. More expense than it was worth for me, maybe not for you that's your call.

When it comes to infrastructure I lean towards simple solutions. My backup generators are simple Tecumseh 10hp units that I'm confident I can get running at the end of the world. If I had ten acres of hardwood I would install a woodstove and let the fuel warm me twice, but if I have access to natural gas that's my choice for reliability and convenience so I stick by my first response to the question in this thread.

If you have the extra money and want nice toasty warm floors in your shop then go for it. I enjoyed being able to fire up my tube heater and get to work comfortably in 30 or 45 minutes, that's what mattered in my commercial shop. The little infra-red unit in my garage also does the trick with very little fuss.

Cheers,

John
 
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