Some questions about finned & saboted projectiles in small arms...

MC_MuHyeon

MC_MuHyeon

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Hi I am a newbie to machining. I'm a college student from Asia who enjoys shooting and has a great interest in exotic small arms designs.

I've recently been thinking of a bolt gun design with a smoothbore barrel chambered in flat-walled .308 wildcats (such as .45 raptor) which fires a finned projectile with plastic/aluminum sabots capped around it. I know this kind of idea has been thought up and done many times before with little success due to tight tolerences from small bore diameter.

But I find advantages of sabot rounds (high BC bullets + high velocity + longer barrel life) so intriguing that I would like to start the project.

I plan to use a second-hand rem 700 standard action for this project with custom steel projectiles and aluminum sabots. However there are several problems I have so I would like to ask the following questions:

Is there a barrel manufacturer who accepts a custom order of making a smoothbore steel barrel in .452 inch caliber?

Assuming that I have obtained the barrel I wanted, would local gunsmiths be able to install it on the action?

What do you think would be the expected price range of this project (rifle action + custom barrel + brass, sabots, projectiles, gunsmithing service)? I am considering of a barrel length of 18~22 inches made of 41XX steel.

Past experiments on sabot rounds in rifle calibers have been done with little success due to less tolerances from small bullet diameter. If I neck up a case as wide as I can, would such problems be alleviated a bit?

Btw I am a novice in machining/gunsmithing, so please keep that in mind before you call me stupid or dumb. I welcome your response unless it's personally insulting, derogatory, or cynical.

Thanks for reading.
 
Hi,
I don't know what restrictions there are on ammunition where you live but years ago before they were banned I used to use a factory load from Remington that was .308 Winchester saboted to .223 for goat culling and loved them. These had a plastic sabot and were a real pleasure to use. I believe that you can buy just the sabot for home reloading in a variety of calibres. Might be worth a look at some of the re-loader catalogues.
 
For barrels, I know both Kreiger and Pac-Nor offer smooth bore as an option, mainly for the black powder shooters. I remember the Rem Accelerators from the early 1990's were not a very popular seller. Sabots are very popular among muzzle loader hunters. It all depends on what you expect to do with it.
 
What little I know about sabots leads me to avoid aluminum ones for fear of fouling the bore.
 
MC_MuHyeon said:
Past experiments on sabot rounds in rifle calibers have been done with little success due to less tolerances from small bullet diameter. If I neck up a case as wide as I can, would such problems be alleviated a bit?
Click to expand...

I don't understand your idea. Please elaborate on how necking up (to use a thicker sabot ?) would improve what.
 
Tozguy said:
I don't understand your idea. Please elaborate on how necking up (to use a thicker sabot ?) would improve what.
Click to expand...
If I do not fully neck up a stock brass case (.308 winchester for example), then I would have to cram in sabots and a projectile in a .308" diameter case mouth. Thus a projectile and sabots have to be small, and small pieces require more effort for precision. Also, necked-up wildcat cartridges deliver higher energy compared to its original ones because of larger bore diameter (=more bore volume). So this is why I want a case to have as large a case mouth as possible.
 
MC_MuHyeon said:
Btw I am a novice in machining/gunsmithing, so please keep that in mind before you call me stupid or dumb. I welcome your response unless it's personally insulting, derogatory, or cynical.
Click to expand...

When you get into wildcats and personal projects you will quickly discover that it is more complicated than first expected and more costly, especially if you have to contract out the machining. There is not much that has not already been tried in rifle cartridges. Might I suggest that you first define what you want your project cartridge to do that an existing cartridge can't do. A finned steel bullet is going to be very poor ballistically. At the very least with a finned steel bullet and aluminum sabot you will have no load data to follow so you will be flying dangerously blind.
I hope that you will forgive my lack of encouragement but so many have already gone before you who are/were accomplished machinists and gunsmiths who could have easily done the project if it had a chance to work.
 
Tozguy said:
When you get into wildcats and personal projects you will quickly discover that it is more complicated than first expected and more costly, especially if you have to contract out the machining. There is not much that has not already been tried in rifle cartridges. Might I suggest that you first define what you want your project cartridge to do that an existing cartridge can't do. A finned steel bullet is going to be very poor ballistically. At the very least with a finned steel bullet and aluminum sabot you will have no load data to follow so you will be flying dangerously blind.
I hope that you will forgive my lack of encouragement but so many have already gone before you who are/were accomplished machinists and gunsmiths who could have easily done the project if it had a chance to work.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your advice, and you don't need to feel sorry for your lack of encouragement, since your message had no personal insults whatsoever! I would rather choose trustworthy advice over lies that I make me happy.
 
If you used the old 45-70 straight walled case you wouldn't need to open the neck . As far as your sabot concept are the fins for stabilizers or to add spin to the bullet? There have been numerous others who have tried this too. If you look into bullet development and history of it you'll see many weird bullets and designs. Flechetts darts , gyro jet bullets. Even round lead balls with steel cable to hold them together. Many more ,
Looks like I'm not blocked off here , but I think ill only visit once in awhile .
 
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