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Stuck Drill chuck in Mill

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The_Apprentice

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#1
So, I thought my problems of WEDGED CHUCKS were behind me by now. But no, I have yet a similar issue to handle with my Mini-Mill.

So, I've tried losening the drawbar and giving it multiple hard wacks with the mallet. No go. I even tried a traditional iron hammer after getting desperate. Nope, damn thing won't budge. Now I'm really starting to worry.

Unlike with lathes, I will not be able to target specific areas with heat to loosen things up. Well, maybe I can if I dissasemble the unit. I guess that could be an option.

Other ideas I had were spraying WD40 down the top, and hoping for a miracle there.

Last option, I can just leave things as is, and just place my end-mills into the actual drill chuck when working. Seems that works fine for every self-declared expert on youtube, despite the manual clearly states to never do this!

Any other ideas? LOL

It's just a 3MT here, very impressive how stuck it got. Seems main problems everyone else has with these is the opposite.
 

hman

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#4
Get a can of co2 duster turn it upsidedown and spray the chuck down. Then wack it out.
I think this idea has some merit. But I'd go a step further. Get a suitable set of Jacobs taper (ie, chuck) wedges, and get the chuck off the MT3-JT[whatever] arbor. Then get a thin sheet of foam rubber (or even corrugated cardboard), cut a hole in it to just clear the JT stub, and hold or attach it at the top of the JT stub to shield the spindle. THEN direct the CO2 spray onto the JT stub. This should do a better job of selectively cooling the arbor.

Alternatively, you could get some penetrating oil (or the classic homebrew of acetone and ATF), apply liberally into the spindle, and gently heat the chuck/arbor/spindle a few times over a couple days to help the oil penetrate. If this fails, then try chilling the arbor.

I'd shy away from whacking too hard, as this might cause damage to the spindle bearings. Best wishes for a successful removal!
 

Chipper5783

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#6
This is a good time to apply the "stop and think" approach.

Could you post a picture (share the make/model for a close enough internet picture) of the actual set up? Do you have any history of when / how this got stuck (is this your mill for a while or did you just get it)? Has that tool been in there "forever"? Is there any chance that the tool spun in the machine taper? The more you know about the actual issues, the better you (or anybody else) can plan what to do next.

BobK's advise about supporting the spindle is very sound advise - protect those bearings!

Beating on the actual drawbar is fine - so long as the tool is not really stuck. Beating on the threads is not so good if it is really stuck. Like "Cat" said, make up a heavier punch, threaded a bit on the one end - with a projection on the lower end that will bottom out in the pocket of the arbor (only make this new punch snug since tightened threads, or putting the force directly through the threads will slightly swell the arbor - the more force you put the tighter it sticks).

Can you get some liquid nitrogen? Make up a tube and pour some down into the threaded pocket of the tool - enough that you actually get liquid down there as it will be flashing like crazy in the tube, but not enough that you cool off the spindle.

Can you make up a "strong back" - just a bar and long ready rods with another bar across the bottom. Then you load up with your favorite penetrating oil, put some pressure on and leave it for a couple days, then try a few more whacks with a hammer.

Let us know how you make out. David
 

Silverbullet

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#7
First I would soak it with kroil and just tap the chuck with brass hammer to make vibrations so it will creep. Then the next day try again . Till it pops out. After its out I'd find why it stuck ??? . In fifty years I've never stuck a morse taper . Somethings wrong , they don't need tons of torque to hold them in . Did it spin in use causing gulling ,, welding itself ,,, there's a reason but what.
 

The_Apprentice

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#8
Well, I haven't used Liquid Nitro since my university days.... But I did pick up some Liquid Wrench Penetrating Oil. Worth a shot?

I actually still have Liquid Wrench chain-lube, as I hear from some experienced users it does wonders for the plastic gears and rubber pulleys on mini-lathes. I use it for some other things as well, so I'm ok with the name-brand.

I'll do a little bit of squirting with the oil over the rest of the week, and a little taps here and there. I'm not expecting much, but we'll just have to take it a bit at a time.

I did take a look at some youtube videos, but dear god. Some of these videos I could swear are by people who have no business in the world telling people how to work or maintain their mills. Some I can not even tell if they are serious or just trolling. LOL

I should post some samples, just for newbies to watch as part of an exercise to spot on what "NOT TO DO!" And yes, I am actually serious here.

That said, the machine is new of course. But who knows how long items may have been sitting somewhere getting corroded in unprotected bits.

I will keep this updated...
 

T Bredehoft

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#9
I"m not familiar with your mill, but is the drill chuck in a collet, or does it fit into a taper? If a collet, just unscrew the drawbar until the collet comes loose, Catch it before it falls on the mill table or vise, though.
 

Dave Smith

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#10
Like Chipper5783 said it would be helpful for pictures and a little more information---is your mt3 for a drawbar with threads or just solid or with a tang-is there a slot in the spindle for a wedged drift tool?--liquid wrench is my favorite but give it a day to work in good---you could use an air hammer with a hammer type head to get some good vibration along with many quick blows and then try a good heavier blow---Dave
 

dlane

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#11
The mill came new with the mt chuck installed ?.
 

markba633csi

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#12
Liquid wrench has worked well for me, but I've heard the 50/50 ATF (automatic transmission fluid) and acetone is even better
Try both, and be generous. Be careful with the hammering as others have said.
Perhaps you could rig up a puller with some threaded rod and some pieces of steel?
Mark
ps yes there's some pretty wild stuff out there on the net- Better advice here for sure
 
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owl

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#15
Liquid nitrogen might be a little hard to come by, but you could take the chuck to -111 degrees F by soaking it in an alcohol/dry ice mix, with that much cold mass, it should chill the stub enough to come out.
 

Dredb

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#16
No disrespect but you seem to be repeating a mistake. Once you've got the chuck out be gentle when tightening the drawbar forever after, Jacobs tapers just need to be snugged up, finger tight then just a touch with the wrench. If you overtighten them, you are going to have all sorts of problems getting them out.
 

British Steel

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#17
There was a thread on MadModder a few years back where someone had the same problem, I put up a drawing of a set of taper wedges Id made for the job and they worked for the guy - if you can make some they'd be a way out?

Wow, it was six years ago, doesn't time fly when you're having fun? https://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,6881.msg74587.html#msg74587 and read on a few pages!

Dave H. (the other one)
 

NortonDommi

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#18
Bob Korves suggestion of supporting the spindle is a good one, a block of wood with a hole in it would do.
Shallow tapers hold very well and the single biggest problem is people cranking the crap out of a drawbar. Vehicle ball joints have the same symptoms and mechanics swear mightily at the idiots who overtighten them. No way will oil or anything else pass the joint when this happens.
Support as Bob suggested make a punch that screws in like Chipper5783 suggested and whallop with a BIG hammer.
Dredb nailed what is the likely cause of your problem. There would be few who have not 'been there,done that' but once learned not quickly forgotten.
One other thing tapers should be fitted dry, I've heard some people say a coat of light oil - this is guaranteed to cause slipage. A roll of toilet paper is handy for wiping down the plug and cleaning the socket.
 

The_Apprentice

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#19
No way will oil or anything else pass the joint when this happens.
I am finding that out as well. After days of applying penetrating oil and trying to allow it to seep in, things are still fail here. That damn chuck is so jammed in there, no go.

I feel it's going to be jammed in there for life at this point, LOL.

By the way, I've included a pic of the top of the mill with the protective cap removed. I can unscrew the drawbar itself ok, but I tried to remove the spanner nut on the top as well. I am finding this also impossible. I can turn it a few degrees one way or the other, but then it jams as well. Is that actually normal? I am finding myself more and more confused with this mill. I don't know which way is clockwise, or up or down anymore... lol

And ontop of these issues, I have even more issues... For example, my headsock still jams at certain points when moving it for drilling. I had a hunch, and after checking it seems to always jam at 360 deg locations when pulling the handlebars. I'm suspect some disgruntled slave in china may have left some screw somewhere in the gears. I'm going to have to do a through examination of that too. It's making my mill unusable for even drilling as it jams all the time (murphy's law) right when I'm drilling. Almost as though someone specially designed it to jam there too. LOL

confused.JPG
 

The_Apprentice

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#20
Update!

So, after taking off the headstock for now... one mystery is solved.

It wasn't a screw stuck in some gear-slot, turns out one of the teeth/spokes seems to have literally torn itself away and folded in on itself. It may be a bit difficult to see this in attached photo. It seems the manufacturer was smart enough to avoid plastic for that, but the metal they used just wasn't up for the task it was designed to do unfortunately.

Also I noticed there was no grease or lubrication inside the transmission at all, so I sprayed some chain-lube into there for now.

---

That said, since I now have two visually confirmed damaged pieces, I will check in with their head office for warranty replacements... Will keep this thread updated on how THAT goes. All one can do at this point is laugh and play the wait game I suppose.

IMG_7788.jpg
 

RJSakowski

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#21
I am finding that out as well. After days of applying penetrating oil and trying to allow it to seep in, things are still fail here. That damn chuck is so jammed in there, no go.

I feel it's going to be jammed in there for life at this point, LOL.

By the way, I've included a pic of the top of the mill with the protective cap removed. I can unscrew the drawbar itself ok, but I tried to remove the spanner nut on the top as well. I am finding this also impossible. I can turn it a few degrees one way or the other, but then it jams as well. Is that actually normal? I am finding myself more and more confused with this mill. I don't know which way is clockwise, or up or down anymore... lol

And ontop of these issues, I have even more issues... For example, my headsock still jams at certain points when moving it for drilling. I had a hunch, and after checking it seems to always jam at 360 deg locations when pulling the handlebars. I'm suspect some disgruntled slave in china may have left some screw somewhere in the gears. I'm going to have to do a through examination of that too. It's making my mill unusable for even drilling as it jams all the time (murphy's law) right when I'm drilling. Almost as though someone specially designed it to jam there too. LOL

View attachment 264452
Having jammed travel every 360º of rotation suggests some debris in the pinion gear. It looks like the entire head is fed down and also that the rack pitch is fairly fine compared to mill/drills that I have used. With the rack exposed, it is possible that the debris got caught in the rack and was transferred to the pinion. It may take some disassembly to be able to clean the pinion.

The manual is rather sparse in describing operation. It doesen't look like you have an opening for drift. You could possibly loosen the spindle nut enough to put a gear puller under the nut. Loosen the drawbar a turn or two as well. If you put a 14mm socket on the drawbar and use it to center the gear puller, you may be able to apply enough force with the gear puller so some tapping with a hammer will break it free.

Failing that, you should be able to remove the spindle and work on it off the machine. This has the advantage of removing the bearings so they won't be damaged and greater access to the problem area. In that case, a heavy plate with three tapped holes at 120º and a second plate with through holes will give you a tool which can create a very large amount of force to free the stuck taper.
MT3 Taper Pusher.JPG
 
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RJSakowski

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#22
Update!

So, after taking off the headstock for now... one mystery is solved.

It wasn't a screw stuck in some gear-slot, turns out one of the teeth/spokes seems to have literally torn itself away and folded in on itself. It may be a bit difficult to see this in attached photo. It seems the manufacturer was smart enough to avoid plastic for that, but the metal they used just wasn't up for the task it was designed to do unfortunately.

Also I noticed there was no grease or lubrication inside the transmission at all, so I sprayed some chain-lube into there for now.

---

That said, since I now have two visually confirmed damaged pieces, I will check in with their head office for warranty replacements... Will keep this thread updated on how THAT goes. All one can do at this point is laugh and play the wait game I suppose.

View attachment 264459
You will want to check your rack for damaged teeth as well. While your at it, if you are still under waranty, you might ask about them replacing the entire spindle assembly. The two issues may very well be related.
 

catsparadise

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#23
If you have access to a lathe, make one of these:

Morse taper release puller.jpg

Its a length of mild steel bar bored and threaded at the visible end with a thread that matches the locknut thread on top of the spindle. This thread is left hand (on mine at least). The other end is threaded for a bolt.

To use it, remove the locknut (make sure you undo the grub screw first), loosen the drawbar:


20180409_123539.jpg


screw the puller (pusher?) on and tighten the bolt. When the taper releases there will be a satisfying bang, but because the drawbar is still in place it won't go far

20180409_123553.jpg


I use this every time to avoid beating on the drawbar and bearings.

Rob
 

The_Apprentice

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#24
You will want to check your rack for damaged teeth as well.
Already did that, seems to be in order, though I don't like how in some places there is only a little bit of surface area to grab, since they drilled out part of the surface for counter-sinks to mount the rack.

if you are still under waranty, you might ask about them replacing the entire spindle assembly.
This has been on my list of ideas as well...

To use it, remove the locknut (make sure you undo the grub screw first), loosen the drawbar:
The only catch here, is I can't remove the locknut. It's jammed in too! I can turn it a few degress only and then it jams. I don't even know at this point to turn it clockwise or counterclockwise anymore. I may try to use some penetrating oil on it also as a last effort.

If I didn't know better, someone REALLY tried to sabotage this mill at the factory. lol
 

Hukshawn

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#25
You may want to check with warranty BEFORE you go too far.. I assume warranty would be void if they know you opened something up...
I know princess auto is great for returns, but on a machine like this, I wonder if they will play the third party card and try to say it's not warrantied through them and you have to contact someone else.
Warranties scare me sometimes. Especially if you pay more for them. Those companies play some pretty slimy games...
 

RJSakowski

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#26
If you have access to a lathe, make one of these:

View attachment 264487
Its a length of mild steel bar bored and threaded at the visible end with a thread that matches the locknut thread on top of the spindle. This thread is left hand (on mine at least). The other end is threaded for a bolt.

To use it, remove the locknut (make sure you undo the grub screw first), loosen the drawbar:


View attachment 264488

screw the puller (pusher?) on and tighten the bolt. When the taper releases there will be a satisfying bang, but because the drawbar is still in place it won't go far

View attachment 264491

I use this every time to avoid beating on the drawbar and bearings.

Rob
IMO, this is probably the best way to pop the MT3 taper without damage. I made one of these to free a a stuck flywheel on a 50hp outboard motor.

Same problem; a tapered shaft with a locking nut to seat it flywheel really tight. For the screw, I used the bolt from my gear puller, a 5/8" NF thread. This was torqued to about 200 ft-lbs and still wouldn't budge. Some blows with a hammer provided enough shock to break it free. As you tighten the bolt, the thread clearance is moved to the front, providing a thousandth or so of clearance for the bolt to move towards the drawbar.

The only downside is having to single point thread that large thread but I'm a great believer in the proper tool rather than make-do for the job.
 

The_Apprentice

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#27
Well, time to post an update on this...

So I've been in contact with Princess Auto... due to my numerous issues I am having with this brand new machine, they did offer a suggestion of making an arrangement where I could go and swap it for another at a store. While this sorta seems like a solution at first, I don't like it..

  • This thing is BIG, HEAVY as hell, and a BIG pain to move...
  • I'd have to drive again to another town...
  • And I risk with same problems all over again!
Being not new to chinese stuff anymore, I knew clear well I'd have some issues, LOL.

I decided to just wait for them to get me the two new pieces to fix the broken ones I got. Here is the problem, it takes 13-15 weeks to get the replacement parts!

I now remember on this very same forum someone had the EXACT same issue with a new CraftEx lathe bought from Busy Bee... same crazy wait-times for a simple replacement part.

In any case, I will weather out the long wait.. currently I will do my own temp-fix repairs on the mill. Today I went and pulled the pinion out from the machine... Then I hit a dead-end...

The problem? Seems a simple snap-ring is hindering my heroic efforts LOL!

Damn thing is on so tight, I can't get it to pop off. Also, I do not even have a snap-ring set of pliers, so I may have to go to Princess Auto again and buy a set. Boy, so THIS is how they sucker more money out of you. LOL

That said, there are two holes on the snap ring to grasp, but they are not even real holes, just bumps, so I'll have to drill through those as well...

Oh well, why do I think a quick job is going to take a whole week to do yet again (or longer?).

IMG_7820.JPG
 
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