Switch wiring - Jet 8 X 18 mill

Re: Capacitor questions

Hi Frank, I'm back. The wedding went well. I'm reviewing your post in order to begin checking circuits and have a couple of questions before I start so let me lay out what I am to do along with my questions.

Unplug the machine

Disconnect V1,V2, X1 and X2 from the switch

Do I also disconnect Z and the motor cap from the switch?

To check the motor, check continuity on the motor wires between V1 to Z, Z to X1 and V1 to X1. X2 to V2, X2 to Motor side of the Cap, Motor side of Cap to V2

To check the switch, connect one test lead on R (all power removed) push one Small Black Button and check continuity to V1, V2, X1, X2 and Z plus the non motor side of the capacitor. Push Red button and then Push the other Small Black button and check the continuity same as above. Push Red button. Now push one Small Black button and the Large Black button at the same time and repeat the continuity test. Push Red button and repeat the test pushing the other Small Black Button and the Large Black button at the same time.

Remove the one test lead from R and connect to S. Repeat the test above.


Do V1,V2, X1 and X2 remain disconnected for the test above with R and S and do I also disconnect Z and the motor cap for this test?


Besides my questions, is this complete or is something missing?

Thanks, Jim
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Re: Capacitor questions

Hi Frank. Here are my results. I did not disconnect the Z lead or the motor side cap lead as the Z lead would have created a whole lot of work and you didn't seem to think we would need to. If when you see the results, you want me to disconnect those; I certainly will do so. Also, if you want anything retested after reviewing the results, please let me know. It does appear that the spare switch has some mechanical problems as it does not stay engaged especially in forward. Hope I got everything here. Thanks again for you help.

V1-Z, X1-Z, V1-X1,X2-V2, X2-mtr side cap, and V2-mtr side cap are all closed.


With V1, V2, X1, and X2 still disconnected:

With switch off:

switch in lathe:
R-V1=O, R-V2=O, R-X1=O, R-X2=O, R-Z=O, R-msc=O
spare switch:
R-V1=O, R-V2=O, R-X1=O, R-X2=O, R-Z=O

switch in lathe:
S-V1=O, S-V2=O, S-X1=O, S-X2=O, S-Z=O, S-msc=O
spare switch:
S-V1=O, S-V2=O, S-X1=O, S-X2=O, S-Z=O

Low speed forward:

switch in lathe:
R-V1=O, R-V2=O, R-X1=O, R-X2=O, R-Z=C, R-msc=O
spare switch:
R-V1=O, R-V2=O, R-X1=O, R-X2=O, R-Z=C

switch in lathe:
S-V1=O, S-V2=O, S-X1=C, S-X2=C, S-Z=O, S-msc=O
spare switch:
S-V1=O, S-V2=O, S-X1=C, S-X2=C, S-Z=O

Low speed reverse:

switch in lathe:
R-V1=O, R-V2=O, R-X1=O, R-X2=C, R-Z=C, R-msc=O
spare switch:
R-V1=O, R-V2=O, R-X1=O, R-X2=O, R-Z=C

switch in lathe:
S-V1=O, S-V2=O, S-X1=C, S-X2=O, S-Z=O, S-msc=O
spare switch:
S-V1=O, S-V2=O, S-X1=O, S-X2=O, S-Z=O

High speed forward:

switch in lathe:
R-V1=O, R-V2=O, R-X1=O, R-X2=O, R-Z=C, R-msc=O
spare switch:
R-V1=O, R-V2=O, R-X1=O, R-X2=O, R-Z=C

switch in lathe:
S-V1=C, S-V2=C, S-X1=O, S-X2=O, S-Z=O, S-msc=O
spare switch:
S-V1=C, S-V2=C, S-X1=O, S-X2=O, S-Z=O

High speed reverse:

switch in lathe:
R-V1=O, R-V2=C, R-X1=O, R-X2=O, R-Z=C, R-msc=O
spare switch:
R-V1=O, R-V2=O, R-X1=O, R-X2=C, R-Z=C

switch in lathe:
S-V1=C, S-V2=O, S-X1=O, S-X2=O, S-Z=O, S-msc=O
spare switch:
S-V1=C, S-V2=O, S-X1=O, S-X2=O, S-Z=O
 
Re: Capacitor questions

Hi Jim I goofed! In earlier post I said NON motor side of the Cap. Later I said Motor side. I always intended to say NON motor side. All the continuity readings are 0 because of the DC resistance of the capacitor. You may have seen the charge current when first connecting to the Cap. but unless you reversed the leads the Cap would have been charged to the meter voltage and reading should be and is 0, Can you check only the non motor side of the cap. on the lathe switch? All the other connections are not necessary. The data is good.
So far the Lathe switch looks good, contact closure is as it should be if the motor was 2 winding. Strange that the spare changes in High speed reverse. V2 don't close but X2 does yet the two switches follow the pattern in High speed Forward. Might want to recheck that.
If you can now check the motor V2 Motor side of the Cap., X2 to Motor side of Cap., V2 to X2 (For this test to do want Motor side of the Cap.)
Then X1 to Z, V1 to Z and X1 to V1

Frank

Frank, when you say:

"If you can now check the motor V2 Motor side of the Cap., X2 to Motor side of Cap., V2 to X2 (For this test to do want Motor side of the Cap.)
Then X1 to Z, V1 to Z and X1 to V1"

I believe I have already done that using the motor side of the cap when I said:

"V1-Z, X1-Z, V1-X1,X2-V2, X2-mtr side cap, and V2-mtr side cap are all closed."
So, V1-Z=C, X1-Z-C, V1-X1=C, X2-V2=C, X2-ms cap=C, V2-ms cap=C

As for redoing the R and S with the Non motor side capacitor (instead of motor side capacitor) circuits in all switch positions for the current lathe switch, all were the same which was open circuit except two that now tested closed. These two are Low speed and High speed Reverse where S-non motor side cap=C.

I did not do any further checks with the spare switch because it is getting harder and harder to keep the switch engaged. It won't hold and keeps popping out. The switch in the lathe is working fine mechanically.

Thanks, Jim
 
Re: Capacitor questions

Frank, I rechecked the circuits of the Low speed and High speed forward on the current lathe switch (R-nms cap=O) and they both continue to show an open circuit, but I checked the spare switch and at least Low speed forward (R-nms cap=C) is closed as you are saying it should be.

When you asked: "is there any chance V2 and X2 being reversed?"

How would I determine this?

Previously I mentioned that the jumper wires on the two switches looked different. On the front of the switch (where most of the jumper wires are) both switches are the same (have the same jumpers to the same terminals). After close inspection, both switches look factory done but definitely at different periods of time as they are definitly different but both switches are functionally the same in regards to jumper wires on the front side.

Thanks, Jim

PS
In case you previously saw this post, I edited it as I was incorrect in something I had put in the post. Now it is correct.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Re: Capacitor questions

Hi Frank,

I have not performed all of the tests that you have suggested but let me give you what I have done with some of my observations. Responding to your points pretty much as you gave them to me, here goes:

With spare switch in high speed reverse R-X2=O

With current switch in low speed forward I still get R-nms C=O (tried wiggling and all to no avail) yet
with spare switch in low speed forward R-nms C=C

There is a jumper wire from the nms C that goes to the terminal directly below R on both switches


You mentioned the milling head hook up:

In the switch schematic, the manufacturer shows nms C connected to the same terminal as the motor white terminal yet
my current switch has the nms C connected to the terminal on the right of the terminal where the motor black wire is connected.


With all this in mind, the way both the lathe and the milling head act is as though there capacitors are not working. To give you a little history, the previous to the previous owner had cut the electrical wires to the milling head and had it in a box. The previous owner took it out of the box and mounted it but never attempted to hook it up. I took it to a motor shop and they said that in a test scenario the motor did run and the test supplied the capacitor. So I bought a new milling capacitor, hooked it up and it ran. I have used the mill and it functions but it is very slow to get up to its highest speed to the point that I would avoid using that speed. Thinking that since I replaced the capacitor and the mill ran, maybe I needed to replace the lathe capacitor to get the lather to funtion correctly. I went to the same motor shop to get a capacitor for the lathe but they tested mine and told me that the one I had was totally functional.

Even in low speed, the lathe is very slow getting up to speed in the highest gear. Also, on one occasion when I was parting a piece of aluminum, the tool jammed somewhat and the motor immediately reversed. This was in a low gear of low speed forward. At first, I accepted all this as older equipment that was not all that great to begin with but now I wonder. Really both the lathe and the mill act as though neither has a capacitor at work.

Is there a continuity test I can use to see if milling head capacitor is working with the switch?

Thanks, Jim
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Re: Capacitor questions

I think I figured out one little problem. You are looking at the switch and I the schematic! So your right the jumper will go down.
I'll look at it differently now!

Frank

Yeah Frank, I'm not sure exactly how to read page 18 but can clearly follow page 19.

The milling head motor is direct drive to the mill spindle. Page 5 and 6 list the speeds for both motors. The mill motor is single speed direct drive so the speeds listed are what you get. The 1450 is the speed that takes way too long to get going. The lathe on the other hand is run with a timing belt with idler pulley. The speeds listed for the lathe are the low and high speed together. Right now I get the low speed range: 65, 265, 530, and 1400. The 1400 takes way too long to get up to speed.

On the mill nms C connected to a terminal other than the one shown in the switch connection diagram, it seems that I should hook this up as per the drawing on page 19. Mill motor white and nms C coming together at a terminal would suggest that these two wires would be connected to one connector and they are not. Not that this couldn't be changed over time but it looks pretty much original.

Also, it is clear to me now that the reason the spare switch is spare is because the low speed forward button will not stay engaged. This would be the button getting the most use. I was wondering if I could canabalize the spare switch and use the lathe parts of the spare switch that would allow the nms C to show C to R or S as the spare switch is doing now. I will attempt to post a photo of the spare switch on the next post so you can see the mechanics of it. I have never delt with this type of switch before but it looks as though it might break down into parts smaller than the three main plastic pieces.

Jim
 
Re: Capacitor questions

Back again! Are you telling me that on the drawing page 19 the white wire is NOT connected to the same nms Mill C? But is connected to the right of the black wire?? If so CHANGE it!! Your running on the start cap not the motor winding! You probably never do get up to full speed! If you use it too much you will cook the start winding.

Frank

Frank, the mill motor right now is connected as follows:

The white wire is connected to the terminal shown on p. 19 to normally receive the black wire,
the black wire is connected to the terminal shown on p. 19 to normally receive the white wire,
and the nms C wire is connected to the terminal just to the right of the terminal shown on p. 19 to normally receive the black wire.

In other words, the black and white wires are crossed (but you said previously that that wouldn't matter) but also, the
nms C wire is connected to the terminal immediately to the right of the terminal shown on p. 19 to connect to mill motor black.

Jim
 
Re: Capacitor questions

Frank, here are three photos of the spare switch. Front, back, and close up of right front where I thought I may need to canabalize. Jim

DSC00089.JPG DSC00090.JPG DSC00091.JPG
 
Re: Capacitor questions

Hi Jim Yes reversing the Black and white is not a problem. However nms mill C must still connect to the same color and as the color code on Page 18 shows, the nms mill C must connect to white.
I'm a little confused as to what the nmc mill C is connected to. Do I assume that "C wire is connected to the terminal immediately to the right of the terminal shown on p. 19 to connect to mill motor black" is now connected to the right of the white wire because they were reversed? If so that not a problem just so that both nms mill C is connected to white. Later I would change it but if connected as I listed it will work because when the switch closes both white and nms mill c are connected to the same side of power. The bad part is that nms mill C is connected to power all the time. Also you should confirm that when the switch is pushed the contacts between white and nmc mill C close. You will have problems if they don't and possibly why you do have speed problems with the mill motor because it's trying to run on the start winding.
Note nms mill C is non motor side mill Cap.

Frank

Frank, with the milling head button engaged and the wires connected as previously described, mill motor white-nms C=C and also mill motor black-nms C=C (this circuit shows a slight resistance compared to the other that is completely closed). I am using a digital meter that shows fully closed as .000 and 1. as open. The circuit mill motor black-nms C showed as .002. Thought I should mention this showing of slight resistance since I don't know if it makes a difference.

The spare switch shows mill motor white-nms C=C but unlike the current switch shows mill motor black-nms C=O.
 
Re: Capacitor questions

Hi Jim Your lathe switch will show both closed because your motor is connected. You are seeing the rather low DC resistance thru the coils. Compare it to the spare and there is no motor connected so your seeing only the switch. If the motor were connected to the spare switch, is nms C connected to the O or C of "white-nms C=C but unlike the current switch shows mill motor black-nms C=O" If it's C then is the actual motor wire connected to it white?In other words I need to know the color of the wire that is as wired if it was working like the spare switch so that "color"-nms C = C Understand?

Frank

I do understand Frank. So it looks like both switches for the milling head are doing the same thing. That considered, I wonder if I shouldn't change the wires to the terminals stated on p. 19. This would switch black and white for the mill motor which I understand won't make any difference but it will also move the mill nms C down one terminal which may affect things in regards to jumper wires. What do you think?

Also, did the photos of the switch help any?

Jim
 
Back
Top