Tap and Die set price dispersion

B

Bill Kahn

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I have a cheap-o tap and die set. Think it cost $50. I was poking around for something that could handle somewhat harder steel. Happened to see https://www.mscdirect.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product/details/43489657 and was taken a-back. Like $4000? It isn't often that one sees like 100 to 1 price variation for what seem to be comparable utilitarian tools. I guess 10:1, like for drill bit sets, I sort of see. Any thoughts as to why there is this sort of tap and die price dispersion. I mean, yes, they use better steel. And more precisely and American made. If I used one of those taps would I notice a difference in soft steel? Is it that the $4000 enables HRC 62 taping? For $4000 some machine shop is getting some serious utility. -Bill
 
They may call those Dies but they are Screw Plates. Adjustable and high quality items. Look around, there are some with a higher price tag. I do as Tom does, only buy what I need. The rest are dust collectors.

"Billy G."
 
I carry two Craftsman tap and die sets in the service van, one fractional, one metric, from emergency use, but in the shop the taps are bought to fit the demand of the current job. A lot of what I have is made up of high quality taps, I got from the purchase of close out equipment, of closing manufacturing plants. The vast majority were brand new, right out of the tool cribs.
 
Yeap, some of those sets are mighty pricey. Plus the MSC pricing is always a bit of a tangle. They border on being dishonest with all their discounts and promotions. The reality is if you are an existing customer, you have a discount assigned to you. If you an old Enco customer, the discount is more worthwhile. One day out of frustration I called their local office and home office and after holding them down, got some answers. They were not forthcoming as you can imagine. I quickly understood that they are not interested in the little guys business.

I have some new Irwin and NOS Vermont American sets which are just marginal. Luckily I have an inventory of older stuff that I inherited from here and there and it is all top shelf. I went through it all a few months back, threw out anything that was marginal, and organized it in compartment boxes. I buy a lot of hardware from McMaster (weekly) and have recently been buying taps/dies from them when I need them. They sell Widia (formerly Greenfield) and it is very good from my perspective.

BTW, I get a lot of Zoro promotions that truly do save big bucks. Downside is that their website sucks, although they are trying to improve it.
 
Zoro is Grainger as near as I can tell. Grainger has always had an "interesting" marketing model. When I worked for Tool & Supply I found a number of our customers were getting the same price from Grainger as we were as a Grainger reseller. We did several thousand a month in Grainger products, and when I mentioned that to our sales rep he said so what. If you don't want to sell Grainger then don't. I actively sought out and often found cheaper sources for any brand that was not owned by Grainger, and sometimes found the manufacturer for Grainger brands sold under their own name.

Travers does a lot of things very much like MSC. Some I think are worse. For example they will often have a part or tool in a sales flyer. When you look up the same tool on the website its more expensive. Then when you look close the part numbers are identical except there is a couple extra characters on the end of the one in hte sales flyer.

(( Added later ))
When I worked for Tool & Supply I did shipping and receiving as well as a lot of purchasing and purchase consolidation. Later I got us into warranty repairs for several lines of air compressors, but that's all ancient history now.
 
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That set goes up to 1 inch diameter. I have never needed to tap anything that big. Pretty sure your cheapo set doesn't go that big.

As a former Enco customer my price for that set is only $3074.11
 
Bob La Londe said:
Zoro is Grainger as near as I can tell. Grainger has always had an "interesting" marketing model. When I worked for Tool & Supply I found a number of our customers were getting the same price from Grainger as we were as a Grainger reseller. We did several thousand a month in Grainger products, and when I mentioned that to our sales rep he said so what. If you don't want to sell Grainger then don't. I actively sought out and often found cheaper sources for any brand that was not owned by Grainger, and sometimes found the manufacturer for Grainger brands sold under their own name.

Travers does a lot of things very much like MSC. Some I think are worse. For example they will often have a part or tool in a sales flyer. When you look up the same tool on the website its more expensive. Then when you look close the part numbers are identical except there is a couple extra characters on the end of the one in hte sales flyer.
Click to expand...

You are correct, Grainger does own Zoro. However Zoro is intended to compete with Amazon and is focused on small customers. Zoro is an online business and their inventory is not intermingled with Grainger. They ship from 5 warehouses strategically located across the US. Their prices reflect that business model. In an Amazon type approach, they offer free shipping on orders over $50.

While you can buy on-line from Grainger, Grainger's model is really Business to Business. They have 330 branch stores with inventory located in metropolitan areas that can serve its industrial customers locally. They have inventory and often offer immediate delivery or pickup. Those branch store infrastructure and inventory costs are reflected in their pricing.

Grainger clearly keeps these two businesses separated and their growth as a company is coming from Zoro type endeavors not their classical Grainger branch store business.

If you are interested in such things, there is a lot written recently in the financial news since Graingers is a Fortune 500 company.

As a frequent Zoro customer via their flash sales and coupons, I get all kinds of survey requests. They're focus is clearly to improve their website. BTW, they need to do so. Never, ever rely on their photos. Be sure to look up manufacturer's information and model numbers and buy with those as a way to confirm what you will get. I photo shopped once an enclosure and was surprised to get something totally different.
 
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My set from eBay, about $65.00 plus shipping! Of course, it's used, has a little wear, still sharp on most of the dies. Taps, well, I'll toss them and replace with newer ones. Not bad for a 60 plus year old set.
 
Bill Kahn said:
I have a cheap-o tap and die set. Think it cost $50. I was poking around for something that could handle somewhat harder steel. Happened to see https://www.mscdirect.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product/details/43489657 and was taken a-back. Like $4000? It isn't often that one sees like 100 to 1 price variation for what seem to be comparable utilitarian tools. I guess 10:1, like for drill bit sets, I sort of see. Any thoughts as to why there is this sort of tap and die price dispersion. I mean, yes, they use better steel. And more precisely and American made. If I used one of those taps would I notice a difference in soft steel? Is it that the $4000 enables HRC 62 taping? For $4000 some machine shop is getting some serious utility. -Bill
Click to expand...
I need to thread and tap for a 3/8"-24. My cheap-o set is not cutting the steel rod I happen to have to work on. (Yes, I reduced the diameter, still not cutting it) So, I want some better die. I see on ebay for $4 https://www.ebay.com/itm/US-Stock-N...096178?hash=item5d6ff21b32:g:Pi4AAOSwSypY9YFZ which says it is HSS. I also see on say MSC https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/03774189 for $21 and also stuff like https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/91331256 for $77.

Any suggestions as to what I get when I move from $4 to $21 to $77? Yes, generically, I am sure the high price stuff is "better." But what does better mean? Any guidance as to if I can know if the $4 will thread my steel rod? (For $4 I'll just give it a try. Not a big deal. But maybe there is guidance on how to be a discerning tool buyer.)

Thanks.

-Bill
 
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