VN The mythical Van Norman 13

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ericpelletier000

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Hardcore Van Norman junkies have heard tell of the tale in county lockup or late night in the back rooms of social clubs, but no proof.

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Here’s the cutter-head:

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No drive dogs, grease upper & lower bearings w old school pressure cups, recessed and exposed clamp bolts, VN C taper w tit. You can’t see it but the spindle lock hole is present too. So the head is old.

Here’s the carcass:

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There is no provision in the casting for coolant and the electrical gear differs from what I have seen. Aside from that (and the serial number), I don’t have an eye for the subtleties.

Anyway, I saved it from scrap and have had it for a long time. I have tested it to determine that it is fully functional (it’s in nice shape for ~85). Now decided to give a go to putting it back in service.

I’m guessing 30’s. I am interested to hear what others think. I can add details, photos, whatever on request.
 
Welcome to the site. It looks great for the age. Would love to see more pics, and also a peek inside the various control boxes.
 
Ok, here’s some pictures of the control boxes. It doesn’t look like it’s in great condition and it is not, but I test ran it as is a few years ago and it all worked as expected. Even the outlets worked!

That said, I intend to delete the antiquated stuff in favor of VFDs.

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ericpelletier000 said:
Hardcore Van Norman junkies have heard tell of the tale in county lockup or late night in the back rooms of social clubs, but no proof.

View attachment 294863

Here’s the cutter-head:

View attachment 294864

No drive dogs, grease upper & lower bearings w old school pressure cups, recessed and exposed clamp bolts, VN C taper w tit. You can’t see it but the spindle lock hole is present too. So the head is old.

Here’s the carcass:

View attachment 294865

There is no provision in the casting for coolant and the electrical gear differs from what I have seen. Aside from that (and the serial number), I don’t have an eye for the subtleties.

Anyway, I saved it from scrap and have had it for a long time. I have tested it to determine that it is fully functional (it’s in nice shape for ~85). Now decided to give a go to putting it back in service.

I’m guessing 30’s. I am interested to hear what others think. I can add details, photos, whatever on request.
Click to expand...
I don't think that what you have is a No. 13, rather, I think it's a very early No. 12, perhaps the oldest one in captivity. As you say, the cutter-head appears to be the type used on the oldest examples of the No. 12. It has a No. 12 style table feed gearbox. But the ram is different from that on any No. 12 that I've seen.

The oldest serial number information that I have comes from a now defunct website by John Kasunich. It goes back to 1937 and it appears that at about that time Van Norman switched to 4-digit serial numbers issued sequentially to machines of each model. The serial number, stamped at the top of the vertical dovetail on the base, consists of the 4-digit number with the the model number as either prefix for a suffix; for example, two of the No. 12s that I've come across have the following serial numbers: 5000-12 and 12-7689.

Prior to the late 1930s, Van Norman appears to have used four and then five digit serial numbers that seem to have been issued sequentially to all milling machines, regardless of model number. For example, I have photos of a "No. 1/2 Duplex Milling" machines with serial numbers 7132 and 8142; "No. 2 Duplex Milling Machine" serial number 10127; No. 11 serial number 12958; and No. 22 serial number 13744. In all cases the model number of the machine is cast into the base, column, ram or base cover. All of these machines, except the No. 22, have cutter-heads with plain bearings. The ram on the No. 22 is similar to yours, apart from the fact the "No. 22" is cast into the ram, above the words "Van Norman".

I would very much like to see more photos of your machine, so that I can see more details of the ram, cutter-head, table, column and base. Especially the right side of the column.
 
You are of course correct on all counts. It’s most definitely a very early 12, the casting proves it.

The serial number aberration, though factual, was leveraged as humorous, temporary subterfuge. Only potentially funny to a few dozen people on the planet I suppose.

Here are the pictures:


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Impressive speed range.
I probably missed it, but what arbor or collet does this head avail itself, B&S?
 
It’s called VN-C, Van Norman C or Hardinge 5V. Form wise, it’s a slightly shrunken version of R-8.

There’s plenty of tooling around providing one wishes to pay for it. For hobbyists (like me), the simple and cost effective solution is to make what I need as I need it. I have another horizontal mill with B&S 9 spindle which came with zero tooling and was my only operational mill for a long time, so I got some experience making tooling.
 
I'd be interested in the antiquated contactors especially with the boxes.

Van Norman relied heavily on their own system of collets & tool holders. It was their 'C' style for 16 & smaller, as well as many of their attachments & fixtures. It was their no. 2 style for the larger mills until the larger went to NMTB 50. Even then they still relied on an adaptor so that the no. 2 style tool holders & collets could still be used. This is based upon 40's - 60's catalogs, so earlier lathes for example likely used something entirely different. C = Hardinge 5V (as stated above) & no. 2 = Hardinge 50V.
 
BROCKWOOD said:
I'd be interested in the antiquated contactors especially with the boxes.
Click to expand...

Sure. Since they’re priceless (or worthless), I’d be interested in a trade. If you’re like me you have a few machine shop things that are equally “priceless” hanging around.

We could start a conversation to work something out.
 
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