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outsider347

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#91
Mark
wondering what software you use to create your drawings?
tks
ed
 

NEL957

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#92
Mark
Here is a AIR BEARING TECHNOLOGY, it might answer some of the questions.
http://www.westwind-airbearings.com/airBearing/documents/AirBearingTechnologybriefv2.pdf

There is a thread in another group and maybe some of the members are in this group.
Here is where you can find the topic:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/making-precision-spindle-air-bearing-202159/

Myself, I thing it is not needed because the grinders have all the other parts that most build of the air spindle build it for. If the machining is honed and polished there is no need for air and another thing that is the enemy of air spindles is moisture. If any moisture gets in the air and it is not cleaned right away rust will set in now. I do not know but I think I will finish the build, then look for needed improvements.

But that is my opinion
Nelson Collar
 

mark_f

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#93
Mark
wondering what software you use to create your drawings?
tks
ed

Actually , I do it the hard way. I have tried some of the cad and other software out there but it is a PITA, and I can't figure it out. I draw my prints with a paper, pencil, and ruler.

The grinder prints are a little different. They are already drawn and printed, so I open them in my photo editor program ( it is called GIMP) and I re-scale the size, erase everything I don't want, add my new text and figures. Then I open it in windows paint and use the drawing features to redraw everything I want and it ain't easy. I have to draw a circle and then erase the part I don't need to make a curve line. It takes me hours to edit these drawings. hell, it takes me hours to draw a print by hand too. I may have to switch between programs a dozen times and I have to save it every time I switch. so you see, I do it the hard way :rofl: :rofl:.
 

mark_f

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#94
Mark
Here is a AIR BEARING TECHNOLOGY, it might answer some of the questions.
http://www.westwind-airbearings.com/airBearing/documents/AirBearingTechnologybriefv2.pdf

There is a thread in another group and maybe some of the members are in this group.
Here is where you can find the topic:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/general/making-precision-spindle-air-bearing-202159/

Myself, I thing it is not needed because the grinders have all the other parts that most build of the air spindle build it for. If the machining is honed and polished there is no need for air and another thing that is the enemy of air spindles is moisture. If any moisture gets in the air and it is not cleaned right away rust will set in now. I do not know but I think I will finish the build, then look for needed improvements.

But that is my opinion
Nelson Collar

Well, I spent hours last night on the internet researching the air bearing. I know that part is a ways off but you never can start research too early. The more I learn about air bearings , the more I am thinking I ain't gonna have one. They are super fussy to make if not close to impossible. I do know they are too expensive to buy. used ones are $400 to $600 dollars on ebay. I have used an air bearing many moons ago when land was young and the buffalo still roamed. They are nice, but I am inclined to think Like Nelson say. With a good hone job and fit it will work without the air satisfactorily. So, the air bearing is still up in the air.


Edit: I just read this post. No pun intended :rofl:
 
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wrmiller

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#95
Well Mark, here I thought I was the only one out there still using Gimp, only to find out other Old Guys are still using it too. And I thought I was unique. :lmao:

As for the air bearing: I figured you'd eventually decide you don't need that level of pain. I have used them in the past on projects that are being paid for by other people (DARPA) but figure it might be a tad overkill for this. Would have been entertaining to watch though. :))
 

mark_f

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#96
Busy day in the shop today. I feel great because I am almost finished wit the lower half of the work head. It is great because I think this maybe the most difficult part of the build.

finish turning table spindle.jpg I started by machining the spindle for the rotary table. I cut the 1/2" post , then put it in a collet to finish. I machined the 90 degree seat and finish milled the top of the spindle. The reason for putting in a collet to finish was, it is important that the seat, the reamed center hole, and the spindle shaft are all concentric to keep accuracy. the table needs to rotate exactly on center.
table spindle.jpg This is the finished spindle. If you look close you will see my major screw up. there is a .187 spacer on the large end of the spindle. this is because I misread the prints and miscalculated the depth and cut the underside of the table too deep by a quarter inch. This would require the need to remake the spindle if my repair was not successful, but it seems "revision 1" may work.

cuttig T slot 2.jpg To make the 3 inch rotary table, I chucked up a chunk of 3" diameter mystery steel ( I think it is CRS). After turning .010" off the outside to clean up, I started what I knew was going to be the hardest part of this build. cutting the T slot in the table. The prints show making it in two pieces and Loc-tite them together. I have no doubts that this would work and would recommend the two piece method for anyone not well experienced. I started by making the .312 slot .250" deep using a parting tool. It took four plunges to get the slot cut and halfway cleaned up. Now you will notice the crappy looking ugly tool in the holder. it is for cutting the "T" in t-slot. I quickly ground this on a new piece of 5/6" HHS. If I owned a tool grinder, I could have made a nice one :rofl:. There is another one on the other end that is the reverse for cutting the other side. I thought I could cheat and just grind one, then turn it upside down and reverse the lathe. DO NOT TRY THAT! It went bad and was really ugly, so I ground the second end. Turning the T slots was very difficult and took a long time, but I am glad I made the table in one piece.

finished t slot.jpg This is another view of the ugly tool.

T slot cut and drill center hole.jpg With the T slots cut ,it is time to bore the center hole for the table spindle. This hole was bored to a snug slip fit for the spindle.

machining table underside.jpg After boring the center hole , I started machining out the underside of the table.

table underside.jpg This is the finished table. THIS IS WHERE I SCREWED UP! I misread and miscalculated the depth of undercut on the rotary table and machined the underside .250" too deep. There is NO WAY I am making this table over again so it is time for "revision 1". I could remake the spindle and compensate for this mess, OR make a spacer. I opted for the spacer because once it is loc-tited in there, it will stay. I will also make a brass insert for the recess left in the center of the top because the spacer dropped the spindle .187". That will be "revision 2" and all is good again :rofl: ( see , there are no mistakes, only revisions :nuts:).


The rotary table.jpg This is the top of the table. It will get finished machined after the spindle is loc-tited and the brass insert is put in.

table assembled with loc-tite.jpg The spindle is permanently affixed into the table with loc-tite so the spacer worked.

table notch.jpg I almost forgot this detail. a notch is machined in the table so T nuts can be inserted.
handle for tilting head.jpg One last detail today. I made the lock bolt for the tilting block so I could assemble everything to check the fit.

work head temp assembled.jpg This is the lower half of the work head, temporarily assembled to see how it looks ( and to make me feel good). I painted the front and rear plates with the black wrinkle finish. I am happy with the look.

cuttig T slot 2.jpg cutting T slot.jpg finish turning table spindle.jpg finished t slot.jpg machining table underside.jpg T slot cut and drill center hole.jpg table spindle.jpg table underside.jpg handle for tilting head.jpg table assembled with loc-tite.jpg work head temp assembled.jpg The rotary table.jpg table notch.jpg
 

mark_f

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#97
Well Mark, here I thought I was the only one out there still using Gimp, only to find out other Old Guys are still using it too. And I thought I was unique. :lmao:

As for the air bearing: I figured you'd eventually decide you don't need that level of pain. I have used them in the past on projects that are being paid for by other people (DARPA) but figure it might be a tad overkill for this. Would have been entertaining to watch though. :))

So ....... you were going to let me flounder Trying to make one and watch?


that would not be nice :nono:

:rofl: even if it was entertaining :rofl:
 

wrmiller

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#98
Nope, figured you would come up with a way to make one. :)
 

mark_f

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#99
Nope, figured you would come up with a way to make one. :)
Actually, I have and may experiment a little with it. Got to get my hands on a piece of nice really close ground shaft about 10" to 12" long and at least 1" diameter first. Hey, I got nothing to lose. This kind of machining is at the top of the game and considered beyond the machinist's capabilities. It is usually done on CNC equipment and grinders.....none of which I have.

But I been told I couldn't do something before....:rubbinghands:
 

Ulma Doctor

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truly inspirational Mark!
excellent work!!!
:man:
 

NEL957

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Mark
May I suggest a shock for a semi truck. I believe they are 1 inch and chrome rod.
Nelson
 

ogberi

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I was going to suggest that, or a piece of hydraulic piston. However, hydraulic piston is pretty tough to machine. I would think that the chrome shock rod would be easier.

Drill rod is pretty uniform in diameter, but it's centerless ground, so it will still have 'lobes' on it. When a centerless grinder gets out of whack, it'll make nice triangular stock...

You may have a look at a piece of hard chromed linear shafting. It isn't exactly cheap, but it's ground to very close tolerances, and usually hard chromed.

Maybe an old bottle jack could provide the stock you need? I've seen those pretty cheap at flea markets.
 

mark_f

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Didn't get much done for spending 4 hours in the shop. I think most of it went on the tiny brass indicator for the work head arm. The little sucker is .187" diameter and .250" long and half of that .250" is a little .125" x .125" peg machined on the back end. I just ain't used to machining something this small. I made three before I one one satisfactory. I also made the two handles that lock everything. I have the holes drilled for the bar through the handles , but trying to decide how I want them to look. The plans call for a rod pressed into the hole and centered. I am not sold on that. I am thinking sliding handles like on a vise, but the bars steel and the little button ends brass. be a lot more work but I think a lot classier too.
lower work head assembly.jpg You can see the little brass thingy in the bottom slot that gave me so much trouble. It is just an indicator mark to set the angle of the head. There will be a brass scale under that bottom slot.

lower work head on base.jpg The lower half of the work head is near completion. Still have to make the split cotters, but waiting on the material to get here. It is assembled for good though. I test fit it on the base to see how it looks. I like it. I will engrave the degree markings on the table a little later in the build.


I wanted to start the tool holder for the top of the work head. the piece of 2" square steel I planned to use was, as it turns out , a 1/2" too short. I am trying to figure a way to cut the plans down enough to make up the difference, but it ain't looking good. I bought this piece for $15. the stuff is $28/ foot :yikes:. Only other option is to look for another piece as this was the last the closest supplier had. So far this machine is all steel, I don't know if aluminum would be good for this part or not. I may have a piece of aluminum big enough. I would be afraid of wear, but i don't know. Any opinions?


I spent five hours editing some of the plans today.

lower work head assembly.jpg lower work head on base.jpg
 

wrmiller

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I like the idea of the sliding handles with brass ends. Should look good. Or you could do those snazzy Quorn ball handles. I still like those things. :)

For the tool holder I'm not sure on the aluminum. If I were doing this and wanted/needed to use the aluminum I might put a thin steel plate on potential wear surfaces. Maybe even loctite them into a shallow pocket on the aluminum. These are just ideas as I don't have a picture in my head of the tool holder and how it operates. What page of the drawings would I find it on?
 

mark_f

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I like the idea of the sliding handles with brass ends. Should look good. Or you could do those snazzy Quorn ball handles. I still like those things. :)

For the tool holder I'm not sure on the aluminum. If I were doing this and wanted/needed to use the aluminum I might put a thin steel plate on potential wear surfaces. Maybe even loctite them into a shallow pocket on the aluminum. These are just ideas as I don't have a picture in my head of the tool holder and how it operates. What page of the drawings would I find it on?

I think those Quorn handles are ugly. I am getting pretty set on the sliding handles with brass ends, unless someone comes up with something better.


The tool holder is drawings H1 thru H6. Particularly 3 & 4 that is the part.
 

wrmiller

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Well you're the one driving this bus, so I'm good with whatever you decide. I was just curious how you'd make those handles anyway. :lmao:

After looking at the tool head I personally wouldn't do aluminum here. But that's just me. I just did a quick check at Speedy Metals and yea this stuff is spendy. I could buy 8" of the stuff and we could split it? :))

Just curious, but what type of steel are you using for this thing? Not being a metallurgist I would probably do gross overkill and use 4140 for everything when 10L18 would probably suffice. Definitely not De-carb though. That stuff is REALLY spendy!

I can see me having over $500 in just materials on this thing... :rofl:



I think those Quorn handles are ugly. I am getting pretty set on the sliding handles with brass ends, unless someone comes up with something better.


The tool holder is drawings H1 thru H6. Particularly 3 & 4 that is the part.
 

mark_f

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Well you're the one driving this bus, so I'm good with whatever you decide. I was just curious how you'd make those handles anyway. :lmao:

After looking at the tool head I personally wouldn't do aluminum here. But that's just me. I just did a quick check at Speedy Metals and yea this stuff is spendy. I could buy 8" of the stuff and we could split it? :))

Just curious, but what type of steel are you using for this thing? Not being a metallurgist I would probably do gross overkill and use 4140 for everything when 10L18 would probably suffice. Definitely not De-carb though. That stuff is REALLY spendy!

I can see me having over $500 in just materials on this thing... :rofl:
Yes,you can put some money in the material. I just used mild steel. All cold finsh...... No hot roll. I have about $125 in material so far and I had a little of it. $250 to $300 should cover materials. Then you still have to have a motor and grinding wheels. But this machine will out perform many of the commercial machines costing near $5000. I used some really nice cold finish rod for my bars. They should have been ground but I couldn't afford $100 for ground bar stock. $5 was better than $100 for me.
As long as you try to keep your tolerances as perfect as possible, you will end up with an accurate machine.
 

mark_f

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Mark
May I suggest a shock for a semi truck. I believe they are 1 inch and chrome rod.
Nelson
I have a friend that is a truck driver, I will look into that.
 

mark_f

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Most of today was spent doing small details. it seems they take as much time as the actual building, but they must be done.

lapped bearing.jpg I started by using a medium valve grinding compound to lap the 90 degree bearing and seat to a 100% contact fit. These types angled seat and bearing were popular as far back as 100 years ago on machinery with rotating tables. the bearings were hand scraped to fit the hand scraped seat and the table floated on an oil film when running. they were usually cast iron and worked excellent. I think the designer used this type of bearing because on a table like this, whether large or small , the table is very stable and there is no wobble or movement. the angled fit keeps the table solid and extremely accurate. Also, you can see the threaded insert in the bottom of the shaft of the table. This was made an put in with loc-tite. the end of the insert sicks out of the base a few thousandths (.025" to be exact).

rotary table washer.jpg This is a special washer. ( I hate making these tiny parts). It fits the bottom of the table spindle to hold it in the block. It is held with a 10-32 screw. Notice it has a recess on the one side. This recess is .026" deep to fit the spindle end and have .001" clearance so the table spins freely but can't move up and down. I hand filed this washer face to get the clearance down to a couple tenths ( .0005" or less).

washer installed.jpg The washer is installed and the table spins freely but with no detectable movement. the angle bearing works great like it is suppose to. The table will be removed one more time to engrave the degree markings and then permanently assembled.

micrometer spacer.jpg Next was to finish up the micrometer for the front bar. I discovered by changing an item's size or type of setup, it changes many other things down the line that may not be thought of at the time. this was one of those changes. The Bonelle micrometer was way over engineered and the Quorn grinder had a simpler micrometer setup, so I chose it. Now I noticed that with .5" of mic travel the bar was losing .5" of bearing surface in a bearing 1.5" long. I was not happy about this and if thought out in the beginning, I would have left the ends of the base 2" thick instead of following the plan and cutting them to 1.5". Oh well.... can't put it back, so I made a revision to only have .250" maximum movement in either end at any time. this is done by putting a .280" spacer between the micrometer and the base. The other end is revised also, but we'll talk about that later. This revision works perfectly so I am pleased with the outcome.
ball bearing in shaft.jpg Something that was not in the design was the steel ball bearing. The original design had the .5" micrometer screw pushing the bar when turned. That seems like a lot of friction surface, so I center drilled the end of the bar half the depth of the ball and used loc-tite to hold it in the bar's end. The screw will now have a very small contact point on the .375" ball making it much smoother to turn. Since it is sealed and hidden inside, a small dab of grease will be placed on the ball at completion.
compete micrometer 1.jpg This is the completed micrometer. It is installed for the last time now. The spacer works perfectly. the bar can still be removed from the other end for assembly of the other parts.

I am getting ready to start the tool holder that sits on this rotary base. I decided to use 5C collets on the grinder because I can get square collets that are good for grinding lathe tools and the size selection is better. this has now created a new problem. The collet spindle is bigger and longer thus requiring the unit to be bigger. I had previously purchased the last piece of steel my local supplier had ( paid $15 for it) AND IT IS TOO SMALL, by an inch. :panic: I went looking for a way out of this mess and found a 3" diameter piece of aluminum round bar. I am figuring on paper how to save my butt here. I can saw this down to a two inch square and have enough room to bore the 1.5" bore for the spindle. I think that part is doable. I wish it was bigger ...but, that's life. Now it is 2" long and the spindle requires 3 inches. I think I can shorten the spindle .5" without hurting anything and I am hoping maybe a spacer on the spindle for the nut to screw up against, or leave the spindle unaltered and try using a 1 inch spacer. I am drawing it out on paper to see if it will work :nuts:. I am not too crazy about cobbing up an important part like this but ya gotta do what ya gotta do. A 3" square x 6" long piece of steel or aluminum is impossible to find around here an way too expensive online, but I may have to wait for one. I will make this decision tomorrow.

I am tired tonight. I had some recurring symptoms today, much like the stroke I had a few weeks ago, so going to the hospital tomorrow. Man I hope they don't keep me. I am just having too much fun right now for this crap. If all goes well we will see what I can get done tomorrow. Stay tuned boys and girls.

ball bearing in shaft.jpg compete micrometer 1.jpg lapped bearing.jpg micrometer spacer.jpg rotary table washer.jpg washer installed.jpg
 
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wrmiller

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Got my fingers crossed Mark.
 

mark_f

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Sometimes it pays to sleep on it. I got my solution. I cut the piece from the round and scab a 1" piece on it. Once machined and bored, you won't se the seam and the bolts will be hidden after assembly. Lot more work, but it will work. I'll try to remember pictures :nuts:
 

wrmiller

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Could you make a note on the base drawings of your comment about leaving them 2"? I'm liking this idea.

It is starting to sound like a person should stare at the drawings long enough to get an idea of what they want to do and then just go their way. Like you and Bill did. :)
 

mark_f

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Could you make a note on the base drawings of your comment about leaving them 2"? I'm liking this idea.

It is starting to sound like a person should stare at the drawings long enough to get an idea of what they want to do and then just go their way. Like you and Bill did. :)

Yes, I will do that.

You are correct. If you have a set of drawings try to look at them, they will drive you nuts:nuts:. They were made in Britain ( they use a different perspective than us), converted from metric to inches in Australia, and a lot got lost in the transformation. they are riddled with errors and you have to stare at them for hours to figure out what is going on.:panic:You will be like this little yellow guy after a while. I have more hours trying to figure these prints out than I do in the actual build.

I found no two builds alike , so yes, everyone does whatever they want ( probably couldn't figure out the prints)

I made a lot of changes and found out when you change one thing , it screws up everything else and you have to compensate for it.

I made my sliding base bigger and heavier, but this altered the dimensions for everything. I am glad I did it though.

I lengthened the bed from 12" to 19" and this is almost a necessity.

I changed to 5C collets for the work head and this required redesigning the whole work head.

I am making a set of edited prints to match what I am building and you will be welcome to a set of them , but I use a lot of scraps or what I can find and this meant things were changed to fit what I have. this is not always what is best. I make no guarantee of my prints, but they sure as heck are easier to follow.
 

mark_f

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I got a bright idea for the work head since it has to be totally redesigned for the 5C collets. I did not have a piece of material big enough but found this.
round stock.jpg There is a work head hiding in there I hope. it will be tight , but I think it will work.

roughed out tool holder 2.jpg Two hours on the lathe and an hour and a half on the mill and this appeared. It is barely big enough but I gonna try it. The bore is finished a 1.500", the problem is it is only 2" front to back instead of 3". I think I can redesign the spindle to overcome it's shortness. We will see. That bump on the side is for the split cotter lock. this is roughed and must still be finished and polished into what I hope is the tool holder. If not, I only waste a couple days and have to find some more material.

Got to go make a drawing to match this and see what develops.

round stock.jpg roughed out tool holder 2.jpg
 

wrmiller

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Yes, I will do that.

You are correct. If you have a set of drawings try to look at them, they will drive you nuts:nuts:.
I do, I did, and I am (nuts). :rofl:

I aced two years of mechanical drafting back in the days of T-squares and French curves. My second year we got to try out the drafting tables with the mechanical arms (oooh...). I am familiar with the Old School Isometric/3-D drawings, but this stuff just drives me nuts. And don't even get me started on today's CAD software... :dunno:

So I would love to have a set of drawings when you are done. I'll even pay for them. Some build notes (what you wish you'd done differently, etc.) would be icing on the cake.

I have two 1.25"x20" lengths of stressproof TGP just waiting for this build, so you can see I'm already going to have to deviate from the original design, and I had already decided that I would like to use 5c collets if I can as they are readily available and like you said, you can get square ones. :)
 
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mark_f

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After 8 hours of milling and lathe work today, I finally have a tool holder and I think I may like it.

round stock.jpg This piece of 3" round aluminum bar stock is what I started with. It was not quite as big as I needed but it is all I could scrounge up.

roughed out tool holder 2.jpg A whole day on the lathe and mill and it started to take shape but I wasn't liking it. It just wasn't quite big enough and I was going to make sacrifices using it ( besides it is kinda ugly). The bosses on front and back should be round , but mine were going to be flat on the sides because of the material size and that is bothering me.

tool holder.jpg after 8 hours of milling and lathe work today, This is what I ended up with. It looks a little rough yet, but some filing , grinding, sanding, and polishing and maybe it will work.

tool holder2.jpg It certainly is looking better though. I did not show some of the unique and strange setups I had on the lathe and mill to make this because many were what even I consider a safety hazard and no one in their right mind should have been doing what I did. :nuts: I was fraustrated and desperate to figure this out so ......I did..:whistle: :nono:

toll holder3.jpg Some black wrinkle finish and we may have a winner here. I am going to put a split cotter on the spindle but I think I will slit the bottom and use a pinch bolt. I made a couple miscalculations and I'm afraid there may not be room for the split cotter.


It is painted and baking in the oven now. I will post a photo of it later tonight.

toll holder3.jpg tool holder.jpg tool holder2.jpg round stock.jpg roughed out tool holder 2.jpg
 

mark_f

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Ok, here is the tool holder with the wrinkle finish baked on.

Tool holder 3.jpg I painted and baked the part. It really looks good. The only thing I wish was different is the spindle boss was a little wider so I didn't have to have the flats on the sides.

tool holder4.jpg I still have to hone and polish the bores, slit the bottom for the pinch bolt and drill for the split cotter at the top. That paint is great. it covers a multitude of sins :rofl: There are some nicks in the face from gripping the part so hard ( while doing some risky setups to machine), but they will be covered by the other parts. This thing would be gorgeous with a brass hand wheel, but I looked up the price on a piece of 3" diameter brass 1 1/2" long :yikes: . i think it gonna half to be steel or aluminum.

The spindle for the tool holder is next.

Tool holder 3.jpg tool holder4.jpg
 

MarkStephen

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his thing would be gorgeous with a brass hand wheel, but I looked up the price on a piece of 3" diameter brass 1 1/2" long :yikes: . i think it gonna half to be steel or aluminum.
You could always use steel or aluminum and a piece of Brass tube pressed on around the circumference and a piece of thin plate inlaid on the face. Give it a 2 tone look.

Mark
 

mark_f

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You could always use steel or aluminum and a piece of Brass tube pressed on around the circumference and a piece of thin plate inlaid on the face. Give it a 2 tone look.

Mark

I intend to have a little brass somewhere. I always try to add some brass accents to projects to give a little "bling" to them.:))
 
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