Trying to size a first mill

[davek181]

I had the same dilemma, how much do i need to get by? My solution after much study and going back and forth was to purchase a PM 30MV. I was liking the 728 which is similar size but the 30 was 240V and physically heavier and also used the R8 tooling. I didn't want to run a 240V circuit, but in retrospect I am glad I did in the end.

I already had an Atlas/Craftsman 12" lathe in house that was the source of a similar thought as to how much i needed or could justify spending. I finally bought the mill thinking it would be handy to have, but no particular purpose on mind.

Now I wonder how I got along without either. I like the lathe even though some call it very light duty. If you take your time and learn to use it properly it works well, at least for my purposes. The mill is very similar, light duty, but very useable if you take your time.

If I were you I would buy a PM mill and sell your drill press if you need to for room. You can always use the mill for a drill press, a really accurate and repeatable drill press to boot. You may outgrow, or desire more power later, or maybe not. I am pretty happy with my setup and I doubt I will upsize anytime soon. I would have to get a really good deal on a large machine to even consider the hassle of changing.

 

[Bi11Hudson]

Though for different reasons than what you describe, I still "feel your pain". My shop is an old residential wood frame structure with weight limitations. Electrically I have the ability to run a good size welder but with a hundred year old wooden structure. . . I desire and would love to have a full size Bridgeport knee mill. But with my limitations, that ain't happenin'. For my milling, there is a shaper, an Atlas S-7, a small horizontal mill, an Atlas MF-C, and a Horrible Fright vertical that was acquired as a controllable drill press. The HF machine has an R-8 quill, the MF-C has an MT-2, and the shaper is a shaper, it'll take most anything. There are two lathes, the larger a Craftsman (Atlas) 12X36. (101-27440) The machines are arranged to use the existing foundation pedestals to bear the weight.

These are small, light weight machines. So I am limited to my model building and small electrical and electronic gizmos. About the largest gizmo I have built was an electrical 3 wheel bicycle. A B&S-0 indexer will fit those small machines, barely. I acquired small rotary tables (2) and added the fraction plates because the B&S-0 is so big. I do some work on my tractor, but can't tackle the heavier work. Anything larger must be foregone, it's that simple.

The end result of my rambling is that you should go with the largest machines you can. Subject to limitations, of course. The dollars spent on a Sherline or Taig would be well spent. They are good machines, within their size limitations. But when the time comes to increase the size of your machines to do serious work, they may prove more difficult to unload. More likely, they would end up in storage, gathering dust. I would say to "bite the bullet" and go with larger machines to start with.

A Bridgeport would be an ultimate solution. But difficult to handle. . . A Grizzly machine would be a starting point if you were willing to fine tune it from the git-go. LMS(Little Machine Shop) and Micro Mark list decent machines that are ready to go. Micro Mark is a model distributor so a little pricier than LMS for the same equipment. And LMS is machinist oriented so support will be better when you get in trouble. For this reason HF should be avoided. They don't even stock all spare parts or know about what they sell. They're just resellers, and poor ones at that.

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[Bi11Hudson]

An afterthought:
Most tooling fits a "tool holder" of some sort. Going from an MT-1, for example, to an R-8 would be as simple as removing loosening a setscrew and swapping over the tool. There is some limitation on the size of tool that can be held and driven by MT-1. But most tooling can be easily transferred from one to the other. Although I don't use the HF machine as a mill, I have a large selection of tooling should I ever have a reason to do so. The horizontal machine is an MT-2 and I do use a number of tools meant for a vertical mill on the horizontal machine. An angle plate and my imagination make the horizontal into a vertical.

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[Aaron_W]

One more thing to add in regards to Sherline, that is often not the case with many of the small Chinese mills. Sherline has excellent customer service, and the machines usually work straight out of the box due to good quality control. In those cases where something got past QC the company will work with you to make it right.

The same can be said for Taig, with the exception that there can be some finish work to do by design, as that is one way they keep the price down. Taig does point out when there is finish work required.

Sherline and Taig are made in the USA (manufactured, not just assembled) if that is a consideration for you. Both can easily be converted to CNC.

Again though I stress the size of your work, because these are very small mills.


Another possible option, although on the large end of your options is one of the Rong Fu style round column mills. These can often be bought used for $1000 sometimes much less. They have their own set of drawbacks related to the round column, but this is mostly a time issue for set up not capability. You can get a lot of mill for your money.

An example of the type, this one sold by Grizzly

https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-8-x-29-2-hp-mill-drill-with-stand/g0705

I would never advocate buying one of these new as I feel there are better options at the price, but used these can be a great value.


As to your tooling question, yes the cutters are like drills and a drill press, easy to move from one machine to another. Not the case with everything as some are made to fit the taper (MT1, R8 etc) but end mills, boring bars and drills are usually held in a collet or other holder.

The dollars spent on a Sherline or Taig would be well spent. They are good machines, within their size limitations. But when the time comes to increase the size of your machines to do serious work, they may prove more difficult to unload.

That has not been my experience, they actually hold their value well. In fact I bought both my Sherline machines and Taig lathe new, because they don't show up for sale all that often, and the used prices I found were usually so close to new it didn't make sense to me to risk used issues just to save $100-200.

 

[Aaron_W]

Bay Area is a big place, but I just saw this in Burlingame, looks like a Taig CNC set up, and could be a great deal even if it turns out to have some issues.

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/tls/d/burlingame-small-cnc-machine-with/7428302809.html

 

[mikey]

That has not been my experience, they actually hold their value well. In fact I bought both my Sherline machines and Taig lathe new, because they don't show up for sale all that often, and the used prices I found were usually so close to new it didn't make sense to me to risk used issues just to save $100-200.

I agree with Aaron. Sherline machines sell before the ink dries on the ad.

Aaron, I remember when you first joined HM and were looking at your first Sherline machine. I just noticed the list of machines you've accumulated in your short time in this hobby and it is really, really impressive! Many of us have been bitten by the machining bug but you've been chewed up and spit out!

As I read through this thread today, I recall @DavidR8 when he first started out. He said he just didn't have any room, just like our OP here. Remember that? Then he did a full remodel of his shop and outdid most of us here! @krby, you have been warned - hang around here and you're going to get bitten!

I have to say that watching you guys come along has been a real privilege. Our hobby and HM has grown so much and so fast and it will be guys like Aaron and David (and many others I could name) that carry things forward. I'm really happy about that.

 

[DavidR8]

Gosh @mikey those are mighty kind words! Many thanks!
I've said this before but I'll say it again: the HM community is the most amazing group of folks I've ever encountered on the web!

 

[Maplehead]

I started with the micro mill and micro lathe seen below and then moved to the two bigger machines.
The LMS 4700 is 110 pounds and the Grizzly G0475 is only 36 pounds. lol
However, in aluminum and brass I did a heck of a lot of things with those tiny machines.
But like everyone else said here, you'll want bigger soon after.
Many of the small accessories I bought for these two machines were no good for the bigger ones. So a lot of money gone.
I donated it all to the high school here in town. The robotics class uses them now.
And I'm relieved of many many thousands of dollars more of my money now.
But I love my bigger boy mill and lathe. They will suit me until I'm too old to run them.

 

[Maplehead]

One more thing. Whatever mill you end up buying, do not get this vice for it. It is the worst designed PoS ever made.
You will be so frustrated trying to adjust it.

 

[krby]

@krby, you have been warned - hang around here and you're going to get bitten!

I have had other hobbies like that. Honestly, if I really really end up loving this, a rented shop space wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. But not affordable right now. My wife would be happy to have the home workbench only for home projects and not the various electronics-related crap that sits on it now. Oooh....finally I could have enough space to stock all the wire and fasteners I want!