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VN Ugly dog- did U ever make a VN overarm support?

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Glenn Brooks

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#1
hey Darryl, did you ever source a pattern for the VN 12 overarm support? I remember you were thinking of casting these.

I want to put my VN back in service this summer and need a support arm. Of course, haven't seen one ever on the aftermarket.

Thanks
Glenn
 

Uglydog

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#2
I was loaned an arm off of a VN16.
Different look than the OEM VN12 & 6s.
I took careful measurements and as soon as classes get out (my full time gig is teaching) I intend to make a pattern and pour.
The one I measured was aluminum. My intent is to pour aluminum without the oil reservoir and Bijur oiler.
Instead after consulting with a handful of VN owners they stated they'd rather go with modern sealed bearings.
I scored an A and B support for a VN22. Plan is to do the same.
I could attempt to pour completely OEM but the pump, site glass, bushings etc.
In the event that somebody wanted one from grey cast I thought I'd take the pattern to one of the local foundry's and learn what they'd charge.
I'll be using aluminum castings and not pop cans.
Interestingly I independently spoke with a retired pattern maker and a millwright/foundryman. Without prompting they both reported that the reason that they poured iron and not aluminum is that cast was less expensive.

The bigger problem seems to be fitting the arm to the unique size of each of these old iron works of art, as the center of the round stock and the center of the spindle seems to vary from mill to mill.
I'd likely offer to bore, drill and tap the round stock clamp and face the support where the bearing sits. I could even offer bearings to fit the arbor. But unless supplied the exact center to center distance I'd be reticent to bore and spindle end of the support.

Currently I'm running my VN6 with a shop made arbor support made from solid steel. Very heavy!! I don't like lifting it on/off. Therefore, I just pivot it up and out of the way when in Vertical position.

Long response to a short question.
We also need to resolve the lack of affordable VN collet availability!

Daryl
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Glenn Brooks

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#3
Hi Daryl,

yep, I'd be interested if you get to the point of developing a pattern. so the big question is cost? given a choice, I think my first preference would be cast iron. FYI, ive had very good response from Cattails foundry in Pennysvania. They are very, very reasonably priced and do careful, indeed exceptional work. The people who own and operate the foundry are second or third generation Amish, and have a reputation for taking particular care of all the work they turn out. The only cravet - they are in high demand and work traditionally with a 100year old foundry. They very often have a big time lag to produce the castings. Months and months. Aside from this, their verbal commitments and quality are golden.

I've always heard about the only way to guarantee alignment is to bore and finish the spindle on the actual machine the overarm support will work on. I don't think I care one way or the other about the internal oiling well. More modern sealed bearings sounds like a good way to go.

I bought a nice Crystal Lake cylindrical grinder last year and rebuilt it for precision grinding things like VN collets- although haven't done so as of yet. To many projects, not enuf time. Maybe I will experiment a bit latter this summer, when I start getting deeper into my VN 12 rehab.

Let's stay in touch, as your pattern making starts to take shape.

Cheers,
Glenn
 

BROCKWOOD

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#4
My 24MLA uses the same overarm supports as the 22L. 1 held oil when I got it, but after assembling the horizontal setup & topping off the oil, it all slowly drained out. Guess I'll be rebuilding them. Very interested in this topic!
 

Uglydog

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#5
I've got extra set of cast iron OEM A and a B VN supports for a 22 (possibly fit others).
Plan was for me to finish cleaning them up an prime coat them.
They both need sight glasses but otherwise seem in great mechanical condition.
If you have any interest I'll sell them as is.
However, I'd like to get you the measurements and confirm they'd fit before we explore this further, I really don't like selling stuff that won't work for the buyer.
PM me if interested.

Thank you!!

Daryl
MN
 

BROCKWOOD

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#6
Seems to me that this thread could be turned into a "How to build or at least Salvage your Van Norman Overarm Supports"? As for a brand new casting of these supports, it was mentioned that maybe my pair will not interchange with your pair due to custom fitting. Mr Leland would NOT be happy IF this is true. (Henry M Leland). What measurements can I provide to help prove or disprove the theory of nonswapability? I do readily admit the predominant numbers on mine are the serial.
 

Uglydog

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#7
Seems to me that this thread could be turned into a "How to build or at least Salvage your Van Norman Overarm Supports"? As for a brand new casting of these supports, it was mentioned that maybe my pair will not interchange with your pair due to custom fitting. Mr Leland would NOT be happy IF this is true. (Henry M Leland). What measurements can I provide to help prove or disprove the theory of nonswapability? I do readily admit the predominant numbers on mine are the serial.
I completely agree!
That's why I wouldn't sell these supports unless I know that the center to center would work on the buyers VN.

Daryl
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BROCKWOOD

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#8
So, in hopes that the reality might be recorded, I grabbed my most accurate measuring device, a screwdriver to hold it flat & a camera oh & a pencil to click the pic with my teeth. 9 3/16" roughly speaking. Is this in the same ballpark - within a 1/16"? 20170604_163155491_HDR.jpg
 

Uglydog

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#9
Brockwood,
Thank you for the lesson in precision inspecti0n.
I had not considered this option as my 25foot rules are reserved for the wooden structures.

Tolerance is an interesting topic. If my calculations are correct 1/16inch equals .0625.
While I am unclear on the VN OEM tolerances I expected something smaller than this value.

I will not be participating in this thread in the future. Should anyone have serious inquiries please PM.

Daryl
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BROCKWOOD

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#10
My apologies Daryl. My attempt at humor was never meant to belittle or demean those that live by the 10th (10th of a .001 that is). I'm getting there slowly. My vision was for this thread to narrow down to exactly what we both want to know. I am new to all this & apparently don't know how to act. You can be sure that I'll go back to silent mode while devising a way to get accurate measurements. Peace.
 

Uglydog

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#11
Brockwood,
Apology accepted.

HM is a place for all of us to learn and those with knowledge and experience to patiently teach if they choose.
I started here several years ago confused about which end of the yardstick was the handle. Through the patient teaching and redirection of many here I've learned to do some cools stuff and had a really good time.
I have much to learn. Heaps.
I certainly don't want you or anyone to be silent. However, we do need to be careful to nurture new members, as we all tend to be a little fragile when in learning mode.
Even if I may not be offended, others might read a post and be afraid to ask questions as they fear ridicule.
While I am not a moderator, I look forward to your active participation.

Daryl
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Uglydog

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#12
Brockwood,
Apology accepted.
I hope you continue to be very active on HM.
When I started I didn't know which end of the yardstick was the handle. While I'm still puzzled on that one, there are many things I've learned thanks to the patient generosity of HM members who tolerate poorly worded questions. I have heaps more to learn. Regardless I've had huge fun and learned much.

Current and future members will judge HM and me by what we post. New members and those just lurking will wonder if this is a safe place to ask what might be an obvious question about how to do something safely and effectively. HM might be one of the last refuges for those who hope to make or repair something instead of sending it to landfill and buying a cheap replacement.

Please don't go into silent mode. However, make sure that posts tend toward positive encouragement and gentle redirection.
The wide range of experiences and perspectives makes this a fun place to problem solve, learn and teach. Please be part of what makes HM and our world a better place to raise our kids and the next generation of HM members.

Sorry for the babble.

Daryl
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Uglydog

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#13
So, in hopes that the reality might be recorded, I grabbed my most accurate measuring device, a screwdriver to hold it flat & a camera oh & a pencil to click the pic with my teeth. 9 3/16" roughly speaking. Is this in the same ballpark - within a 1/16"? View attachment 234881
Brockwood,
Is that an aluminum support in your pic?
I've seen an aluminum support for a VN16 which looks very similar in shape and design.
The supports I have are cast.

Daryl
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BROCKWOOD

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#14
Thank you for your kind replies Daryl. Yes, supports are aluminum. Made in 59. I'll check to see if my calipers are long enough or add gauge blocks to get an accurate reading on the center to center distance. Living is learning!
 

Reeltor

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#15
Brockwood,
Is that an aluminum support in your pic?
I've seen an aluminum support for a VN16 which looks very similar in shape and design.
The supports I have are cast.

Daryl
MN
The supports that I have for my VN22L are aluminum. At one point in their life one was split and bubble gum welded back together. Are some standard supports really cast iron?
 

BROCKWOOD

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#16
I doubt there was any aluminum during WW II - then again I guess they would have all been for war production anyway. Any chance we could see the weld, curious of where it split. I would prefer to avoid the split all together.
 

BROCKWOOD

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#17
With the help of my wife, I had 4 hands & could finally get a repeatable measure between centers. 9.166". Talking out the solution to how to tackle this turned on the idea light bulb. Any ideas of a better way to measure this, realizing, of course that I am in no way as equipped as Tom of OxTools You Tube fame, are completely welcome. In case the pic is not clear enough: Small Diameter = 0.720", Large Diameter = 3.480", Center to Center = 9.166". If not for my wife holding the socket & spacer on the 1 side, I don't know how I could have gotten this far. 20170605_194232994_HDR.jpg
 

Reeltor

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#18
I doubt there was any aluminum during WW II - then again I guess they would have all been for war production anyway. Any chance we could see the weld, curious of where it split. I would prefer to avoid the split all together.
I'll try to get some photos in the next day or so showing the break. I assume that whoever broke the support didn't understand the 3 set screws. The center screw separates the split line so you can remove it from the support arm. I think someone just turned the center screw beyond the support's yield point.
 

Reeltor

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#19
Photos of repair as requested, I don't think you can build one without the split line. You would have a hard time getting it on/off and adjusting the ("B") support where you need it on the arbor.
Good luck and post some photos.

A-support repair 1.JPG

A-support repair 2.JPG
 

Uglydog

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#20
I'll take some pics some different ways to measure hole location. I'm sure that others here at HM can come up with others. I'll do that today or tomorrow.

Even when I finally get around to pouring one of my concerns is will people be able to bore them. Will then have and know how to set up, locate and use a boring head.
Perhaps carefully written specs and possibly a video will be helpful.

Daryl
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Uglydog

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#21
Reeltor,
From the pics it appears as thought there was decent penetration on the patch!
We definitely need the split and the three bolts.
Carefully fitted to the overarm works well.
I made one for my VN6 out of CRS.
Started to make one for the VN22LU. I'll need free fall hoist or engine lift to mount it if made out of CRS.

Daryl
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Reeltor

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#22
Daryl,

Wouldn't you mount the "New" "B" support on the arm, eyeball it with the center of the spindle and then drill it out on the mill set in horizontal position? Moving progressively larger until you need to use a boring head? An "A" support would only need a hole large enough for the bearing to press fit.
I have a hard time lifting these aluminum supports into place. I couldn't imagine one out of CRS or cast iron. A crane or hoist of some type would be a necessity!!!
 

BROCKWOOD

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#23
Photos of repair as requested, I don't think you can build one without the split line. You would have a hard time getting it on/off and adjusting the ("B") support where you need it on the arbor.
Good luck and post some photos.

View attachment 234968

View attachment 234969
Thanks Reeltor! My use of the word split was about the welded repair (not the factory housing split). I'm working on my communication skills. Weld looks good to me. I can see where misunderstanding the function of the center bolt could lead to this failure. I do believe a beginner was determined & strong to make that break.
 

Uglydog

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#24
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