Vintage watchmakers lathes?

[Aaron_W]

I don't know if we have any watchmaker / clockmakers on the forum, but I have a question if we do.

I'm curious about vintage watchmakers lathes. I recently got a book on small lathes and the various watchmakers lathes are covered in some detail, but the book was originally published in the 1950s when there were not many small lathes suitable for watchmaking other than these watchmakers lathes.

I see them on ebay selling for a few hundred to a few thousand dollars. I am assuming at least the higher end are collectors, old, often Swiss or German, built like a Swiss watch... yeah, I can imagine there is a collectors market for some of these.

I'm curious about the practical application, are these still the preferred choice for making parts for clocks and watches, or are they more in the realm of tradition, like photographers who use actual film, or glass plates?

There are many modern small lathes these days which can be set up to use watchmakers collets. I'm assuming these vintage lathes are no match for a $12,000 Levin but what about a Taig, Sherline or 7x Chinese lathe set up for watchmaking? I know Sherline has its fans among watchmakers, but I don't follow the other two closely enough to know how much they are used.

There was a Mr Pete video where he goes to the shop of a friend who restores old clocks. He is set up with a Sherline lathe and mill, which appear to be his primary machines but he also had a couple of vintage watchmakers lathes set up. They didn't go into the why's of his tool selection, so don't know if they were set up for specific functions, used for the most precise work or if the vintage lathes had sentimental attachment so he still uses them.

 

[David S]

I repair old clocks and find that my Atlas 618 is just the right size for me, with all the custom accessories I have made over the past decade or so. Having said this, a lot of clock repair & watch repair people use the Sherline lathe and companion mill, and swear by them.

Most old watch makers lathes were designed to be used with a graver sort of like wood turning, and there are a number of folks that are proficient with gravers. I prefer the accuracy of calibrated cross feed and compound dials.

Some people that use an engine lathe (Sherline etc), will often resort to their watch makers lathe when they have to reproduce or copy and existing complex shaped part like a finial, or thumb screw, where cutting free form is much quicker and the part doesn't have to be dimensionally accurate.

David

 

[Aaron_W]

Thank you that all makes sense, particularly the bit about the gravers. I've just started reading The Watchmaker's and Model Engineer's lathe by de Carle. I'm finding it very interesting, but he doesn't really address this point. or at least I haven't gotten there yet if he does.

Sherline does sell a T-rest fixture to use with gravers, but that requires removing the saddle and cross slide and then mounting the T rest which could be a nuisance if just for one part as well as time consuming. I could certainly see where one might use a conventionally configured lathe for the work is suited to it, and then have a second set up for gravers. If you are going to buy a second then a watchmakers lathe designed for that use makes sense.

These vintage lathes seem an odd combination of precision being finely crafted, but also a bit crude with their resemblance to a wood lathe.


This is a big part of why I'm loving this machining hobby. Every time I think I kind of know what is going on I find another rabbit hole to explore.

 

[ACHiPo]

Aaron,
I dabbled in watch repair for a bit. For watch making a Schaublin 102 or Levin are arguably the best IF you're actually turning pinions. Other lathes like Derbyshire, Boley-Leinen, etc. are fine as well, but they must be in pristine condition (rarely the case given the age). Run out and alignment needs to be in the millionths, with absolute smooth motion (no vibration). You generally need to get your face right into the work with a loupe, so overall scale and size is important as well. Finally as you state above being able to sharpen and use hand gravers is imperative--something I never got around to try.

Here's an interesting blog by a relatively young watchmaker (he has been practicing about 10 years I think)

http://watchmakingblog.com/

And another quite accomplished watchmaker hobbyist...

Adventures in Watchmaking

A journal of experiences in watchmaking

watchmaking.weebly.com

These sites are useful for tools and parts...

Dave's Watch Parts and Tools

Shopping

www.ottofrei.com

Esslinger Watchmakers Tools and Watch Parts

Watchmakers parts and watch repair tools and supplies including watch straps, batteries, movements, and clasps

www.esslinger.com

Evan

 

[ACHiPo]

P.S. I have a lot of books if you're interested. And tools. And watches.

Welcome to the rabbit hole!

 

[Aaron_W]

Thanks Evan, I didn't know you were interested in watches/clocks. I've loved antique "grandfather" clocks and clockwork devices since I was a small child. I have bought a couple of books just to see what I'm looking at.

I'm not ready to dive in just yet, and when I do start my first project I'm realistically hoping for Timex knockoff, not Rolex.

 

[Forty Niner]

I don't know if we have any watchmaker / clockmakers on the forum, but I have a question if we do.

I have a small antique clock collection and repair my own clocks. It is a hobby I enjoy. I've only been doing this for about 8 years so I don't really claim to be a "clockmaker". I have a Sherline Mill, a couple of Sherline Lathes, a Taig Lathe, and four old Boley and Levin watchmakers lathes. I let the task/job at hand determine which machine to use. I like the little watchmakers lathes for polishing pivots and such, but for machining parts I always step up to the larger lathes. I have crosslides for the watchmakers lathes, but they do not compare to the convenience of the Sherline lathe. Forget threading on a watchmakers lathe. I have two Sherline lathes so I can leave one set up for threading and one for machining. Accessories for the watchmakers lathes are expensive and well used. New accessories for the Taig lathe are quite reasonable, and are also reasonable for the Sherline.

 

[ACHiPo]

Thanks Evan, I didn't know you were interested in watches/clocks. I've loved antique "grandfather" clocks and clockwork devices since I was a small child. I have bought a couple of books just to see what I'm looking at.

I'm not ready to dive in just yet, and when I do start my first project I'm realistically hoping for Timex knockoff, not Rolex.

Aaron,
I have some good “starter” pocket watches when/if you’re interested. i started on pocket watches as they’re bigger and cheaper than wristwatches.

 

[mikey]

Sherline does sell a T-rest fixture to use with gravers, but that requires removing the saddle and cross slide and then mounting the T rest which could be a nuisance if just for one part as well as time consuming.

Aaron, the T-rest sold by Sherline is a reproduction of the one designed by WR Smith, a master Horologist. It simply slips onto the ways of the lathe and locks in place with a lever. It only takes a few seconds to mount. You just need to move the cross slide out of the way and you can attach the rest. I made one from plans I got directly from Mr. Smith. He is now deceased but I think you might still be able to find the plans at his site or from the Home Shop Machinist magazine where it originally appeared. If all that fails, PM me.

Almost everything that comes off my Sherline is kissed with a graver. They are some of the most used tools in my shop and I would encourage you guys to try them.

 

[Aaron_W]

Aaron,
I have some good “starter” pocket watches when/if you’re interested. i started on pocket watches as they’re bigger and cheaper than wristwatches.

Thanks, I know almost nothing about vintage clocks and watches. This is one of those things where one thing leads to another, I bought some machining books on ebay, then I get this suggestion for a book on watchmakers lathes, end up watching some youtube videos...

I really want to get my shop back together, finish the little steam engine I started (cough) 2 years ago, but I will definitely have some questions for you. I was thinking more the clock end of things but a pocket watch would be a neat project so I'd like to see what you have done and what you can suggest.

Aaron, the T-rest sold by Sherline is a reproduction of the one designed by WR Smith, a master Horologist. It simply slips onto the ways of the lathe and locks in place with a lever. It only takes a few seconds to mount. You just need to move the cross slide out of the way and you can attach the rest. I made one from plans I got directly from Mr. Smith. He is now deceased but I think you might still be able to find the plans at his site or from the Home Shop Machinist magazine where it originally appeared. If all that fails, PM me.

Almost everything that comes off my Sherline is kissed with a graver. They are some of the most used tools in my shop and I would encourage you guys to try them.

I thought you made your own. I've also had a look at WR Smith's site.
I've followed some of your posts on gravers, that was already on my radar for other things I do that could benefit from that.


So many things I want to do, and so many distractions.