Why should I NOT buy a 3-in-1 machine?

strantor

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I've been looking around mostly at lathes and somewhat at mills for the past few months. I wanted to buy an old used American lathe, but I think I've decided that there is too much risk involved. I would rather get something new. From what I've gleaned from the internet, I've concluded that chinese machines are the worst, and taiwanese are little bit better. I've also concluded (from reading the same thing over and over in different sites) that the lathe/mill combo machines combine the worst features of a lathe with the worst features of a mill. Now, I don't know enough about machining for that little tidbit to be meaningful - when I think of "the worst feature of a lathe" - I draw a blank; likewise with a mill. So what are people talking about when they make this comment?

Considering that I don't plan to buy used, my decision making process seems a little simplified. I don't exactly know what I'm looking for, but my rudimentary criteria are:
  • 1. as large of swing and bed as can be had for the money
  • 2. this shouldn't need to be on the list, but: rigidity, aka the ability to do it's job
  • 3. threading ability, preferably inch and metric - power feed and preferably power cross feed, and preferably feed in both directions
  • 4. the more tooling/accessories included the better
  • 5. as precise as possible - actually, I don't know where to draw a line in the sand, or what's considered good or bad
So these 3-in-1 combo machines seem to meet my criteria. The reviews I've read, do usually acknowledge that while they "are a compromise of both a lathe and a mill," that they "are surprisingly rigid and capable", So I think the 3-in-1 satisfies #2 and #3. The smithy in particular satisfies #4 very well. I'm taking #5 for granted.

Regarding #1, this is the heart of my question. These combo machines, on paper, have a very impressive swing. If one did not care about milling and were to base their lathe purchase on size of swing for the money, it would be more cost effective (from Grizzly, Enco, AND Smithy) to buy their 3-in-1 machine than their lathe of same swing. For example the Grizzly G9729 Swing = 16.5" for 2000$, and their cheapest lathe with same swing is the G0509G for $8000. Since size of swing is my #1 consideration, this question is burning in the back of my brain. something tells me that the large swing of the combo machine is too good to be true, and that there will be something to prevent me utilizing it. I suspect being underpowered will be the culprit.

Anybody have any input on this?

Thank you.
 
Here's a preemptive tidbit, since I anticipate someone saying "Well, it depends on what you plan to do with it"

The most immediate things will probably be:
  • making small pneumatic cylinders
  • turning electric motor commutators
  • maybe turning brakes (not sure if that's something you can do on a traditional lathe, but I don't see why not

In the future I plan to cast and machine electric motors (if that proves possible) and possibly small steam engines.
 
If your a tinkerer or a piddlelyer, (pardon my spelling) the 3 in one machine can't be beat.

But if you're wanting to do serious machine work, I would not encourage you to buy one.

The 3-in one machines like the Smithy have their place and will do a good job of machining, but there are limits of what they can do.
They have large swing, but if you was to try to turn a piece of material near the maximum capacity, I think you will find out real quick it won't work easily. But for basic light milling, drilling and light lathe turning, they'll work fine.

Just my 2-cents worth.
 
(from reading the same thing over and over in different sites)

I think youve answered your own question with this quote...

Ive been following several different forums for several years and have read several hundred post/comments and cannot recall ever seeing an all out praise on a 3in1. Occasionally someone will dance around praise, but its always with a "but" somewhere. Then I have a good friend that bought one of the "big" (12"??) ones and while his lathe is fairly decent the mill part is awful.
 
"making small pneumatic cylinders"
"turning electric motor commutators"
Probably be ok.

"maybe turning brakes"
Maybe, iffy.

"In the future I plan to cast and machine electric motors (if that proves possible) and possibly small steam engines."

I think you better plan on buying bigger equipment in the future.
 
Don't even think about trying to make something precision like pneumatic cylinders on a 3 in 1 machine. Turning brakes is a bit tricky. You have to have some way to get hold of them. My journeyman tried turning his brakes on a REAL lathe,and they came out terrible. They are best turned on a brake lathe which has the means to properly hold the brakes and cut both sides true and parallel. If not,your brakes will lurch and jump all over the place,and not be safe at all. If you got into a wreck,and it was found out that you turned your own brakes,you'd likely get blamed for the accident if it involved effective stopping distances,etc..
 
Strantor,
I have a 3-N-1 machine and the following are my experiences and observations.
1) Tramming is tedious and must be repeated often
2) work envelope is rather small on the X-Y table of the milol.
3) height between work and quil requires a lot of extension or a riser
4)The Swing over cross slide is the max diameter unless facing.
6) the cross slide uses up a considerable amount of the usable length of the bed.

I have thoroughly enjoyed my 3-N-1 and have made a lot of very nice pieces with it. But I have also respected the fact that it is a small unit with attributes of a mill and a lathe combined. It will not do as fine a quality of work as each machine will seperately, but still does an acceptable job for my needs. If your shop is severely cramped as mine is, a 3-N-1 makes sense because I can get two machines in the space of one. If I had extra room I would have opted for a set of seperate machines if my budget would allow it. Unfortunately I did not have room and my budget was extremely tight, so a 3-N-1 made perfect sense for my situation. Your situation is probably different, but the end result is usually based on space and budget. A Smithy Granite or a Bolton or an HQ-800 in multiple colors all are very nice machines and will give you great service over the years and can be sold for reasonable reurn on your investment if you should decide to get bigger or seperate machines. In the meantime it will allow you to build your skills and experiment with doing projects and planning for tool changes and fixturing. All of those skills are neccessary and must be learned well to really be able to create high end stuff. So my suggestion is go with your gut and fill your space with the nicest most feature packed machine as you can afford and fit into your space. It will take many years to fully exploi that machine and when you do replace it you will have a very definate idea of exactly what will fit and exactly what you want it to be capable of doing. If you need help comparing different machines I or many of my peers will be glad to assist you and help by discussing the pro's and con's of various features like MT2 or R-8 bore size. Hope this helps.
Bob
 
Don't do it . A 3 in 1 is a compromise at best. You are going to spend all your time setting up and end up with mediocre results. You will enjoy the hobby much more with dedicated machines.

Randy
 
Here's what I've found to be the problem with any kind of multi-machine.

1) setup can take a lot longer, because of the various things that have to be moved/configured, especially when going from mill to lathe operations or vice versa.
2) Those types of tools do a little of everything, but they don't really do any of it well.
3) the working capacity is small

I think you can get some good used machines, if your patient.

In my local craigs list theres a 3 in 1 for sale...it looks brand new... wonder why he's selling it:thinking:
 
Stantor

I have been turning electric motor armatures for years. Even the Craftsman 109 by Dunlap I started out with did an OK job of turning the armatures.

But I was also doing other turning, quickly realized I had outgrown it and then went to a 9x20 Logan. It did a fantastic job on the armatures and just about anything else, but I found that I was trying the fit too large of items into it too often, think cutterhead for a 24" wood working planer, etc. That is when I went to a 14x40 lathe, which in my humble oppinion is about the best all around size for a small shop. If it is too big to fit into the 14x40, chances are it should be being farmed out to a bigger machine shop. And the 14x40 handles the small stuff really well. NB: you can usually do smaller in a large lathe, but it is im-passible to do large items in a small lathe. Also the rule of thumb is that you should look at getting a machine that will handle 75% to 90% of the jobs you will need to do. That occassional really large job will break the bank getting a machine that large.

Now as for the 3-in-1 As you have found, there are lots of compromises in getting a multi-purpose machine and they do not always work out to be the best features.

My biggest complaint with them, like the Shop Smith wood working machine is that there is an amount of set-up time to get to each application. It is not just flip a lever and you go from lathe to mill mode! So if you have an item set up in the mill and need to turn something, then you need to spend the time to reconfugure the machine and vise versa. also if you are working along and realize that you missed or goofed a step, you have to go back and re-configure the machine to do that step. Even worse if you have to make one more of a run of parts and have to go through the set up and tear down for each step.

I have found that over the years, I can often supply clients with one or more individual machines for similar or less money than it costs for a multipurpose machine, and they are generally happier as they can have each one set up and ready to do what it was designed for. Also if they ever need to upgrade one of the machines, they do not end up having to replace all of them, just the one that is needed.

The caveat to this is if you are working in a very small shop space and cannot fit the separate machines in. Then the multi-machine shines. It allows you, with proper planning, to have a very effective work space in a very small area. As they coined at Shop Smith, always remember the 5 P's


"**** Poor Planning makes Poor Performance"

Yes, I agreee with you about Chinese, vs Tiawanese, that is why I went that route as well. Even though the Tiawanese was more money, by over double the Chinese, the fit and finish was better and the electrics were Aces and Spades better.

My take, is if you have the room for the machines, and can afford them, then get individual machines. If you are tight for space and are willing to work around the idiocycracies of a multi-machine then go that route.

I did dispose of the drill press and use my mill for a drill press as I needed the extra space, but definitely do not regret getting both a lathe (14x40 Gosan) and Mill (10x50 Bridgeport Clone)

Walter
 
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