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Wiring help needed

Grinderman

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Hello,
New guy here looking for some electrical expertise. I’m trying to hook up a Marathon 1/2 hp 115V motor to a Dayton 2X440 drum switch. The motor has 4 wires connected to the terminal board/switch? The yellow and blue are the run windings I believe (1.6 ohms) and the red and black are start windings(4.7 ohms). The incoming line connects to the terminals with the studs/nuts. The motor works fine when connected to a power cord and reverses when red/black are switched.

I have tried a few different wiring diagrams without success. I can get the motor to run and reverse but it gets hot in a short time. I feel the start windings are not being taken out of the circuit after the motor starts but not sure. i’ve Enclosed a few pics of what I have. If you could shed some light on this it would be much appreciated. Looking for a simple to understand diagram by wire color if possible. The t1, p1,p2 stuff is all confusing to me.
Thanks in advanceE4A06BB2-682A-4296-A4FF-A0ABDE3F4564.jpegF0C2828E-07E9-4994-B0C6-6F5FCEF5F50B.jpegF0C2828E-07E9-4994-B0C6-6F5FCEF5F50B.jpeg7D501083-747D-41BF-AF1C-E2DBE62A8A53.jpeg
 

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lordbeezer

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There will be several fellows on here to help you get it going..you might try looking at old posts in the electrical section in the mean time..good luck
 

Grinderman

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There will be several fellows on here to help you get it going..you might try looking at old posts in the electrical section in the mean time..good luck
Thanks for the reply. I have looked at a lot of the older posts but with all the different motors and switches it’s really confusing.
 

gr8legs

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I'm guessing from your symptoms that the centrifugal start switch (in series with the start winding) is not working which is causing your motor to heat up after running for a bit.

If you have a clamp-on ammeter or a Kill-A-Watt you can check this. Motor start should have a fairly large inrush current and then drop suddenly and significantly when the motor approaches normal running speed. No significant decrease in amperage says start switch is bad.

Some are repairable but for a 1/2 HP motor replacement is probably cheaper than time spent disassembling/reassembling, presuming parts are available. You might luck out and find the start contacts are just welded closed and can be separated and dressed for some more service life.

Good Luck

Stu
 

Grinderman

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I'm guessing from your symptoms that the centrifugal start switch (in series with the start winding) is not working which is causing your motor to heat up after running for a bit.

If you have a clamp-on ammeter or a Kill-A-Watt you can check this. Motor start should have a fairly large inrush current and then drop suddenly and significantly when the motor approaches normal running speed. No significant decrease in amperage says start switch is bad.

Some are repairable but for a 1/2 HP motor replacement is probably cheaper than time spent disassembling/reassembling, presuming parts are available. You might luck out and find the start contacts are just welded closed and can be separated and dressed for some more service life.

Good Luck

Stu
That’s correct but the motor works fine when just powered by a regular cord not connected thru the drum switch.
Looking at the diagram on the drum switch cover,it shows the start windings going to term 3/ 4, run to 1/5 and I’m assuming incoming power to 2/6.

My question is how do you physically accomplish this at the motor?
Do you:
Unplug the wires from the terminal board/switch and extend the start/run winding wires out to the switch?
Leave the wires plugged on and run new wires from there out to the switch?

This is the problem I’m having. How do you connect the wires to the drum switch and still have the centrifugal switch take the start windings out of the circuit after the motor starts.

Thanks for any advice
 

gr8legs

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Ah, OK -

The fly wires are the run winding, the threaded studs are the start winding. When you set the motor direction by switching wires at the motor terminal board you are connecting the fly wires to the stud connections, which are connected to the power input.

To use the drum switch the only connections between the two should be made through the drum switch.

Extend the fly wires and the stud connections (four wires total) to the drum switch. your connections then are correct: "start windings going to term 3/ 4, run to 1/5 and I’m assuming incoming power to 2/6" . Right. (One winding to 3/4, other to 1/5, doesn't matter which winding goes where.)

Try that and see what happens. Here's the diagram from the drum switch data sheet that applies:

2X440_DrumSwitchConnections.jpg
 

Grinderman

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Ah, OK -

The fly wires are the run winding, the threaded studs are the start winding. When you set the motor direction by switching wires at the motor terminal board you are connecting the fly wires to the stud connections, which are connected to the power input.

To use the drum switch the only connections between the two should be made through the drum switch.

Extend the fly wires and the stud connections (four wires total) to the drum switch. your connections then are correct: "start windings going to term 3/ 4, run to 1/5 and I’m assuming incoming power to 2/6" . Right. (One winding to 3/4, other to 1/5, doesn't matter which winding goes where.)

Try that and see what happens. Here's the diagram from the drum switch data sheet that applies:

View attachment 305378
Excuse my ignorance, but by fly wires I’m assuming you mean the wires coming out of the motor going to the terminal board??
You are saying then to disconnect the run and start winding wires from the terminal board and extend them to the drum switch??
By not having any wires on the terminal board/switch, wouldn’t that make the centrifugal switch not function at all?
 

gr8legs

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Yes, the 'fly wires' I am referring to are the red and blue leads with female spade connectors on them. Those are (usually) the 'RUN' winding connections.

The 'START' winding is connected to the two threaded studs on the terminal block - and the centrifugal switch is hard-wired inside the motor to be in series with the start winding.

For a normal (non reversing) motor application you put the red and blue wires on the male spade connectors adjacent to the threaded studs and connect line power to the two threaded studs. To reverse the rotation you reverse the red and blue wires at the terminal board.

To use the drum switch you need access to both the START and RUN windings separately at the drum switch, so you have to bring out four wires from the motor - two for the threaded stud connections and then disconnect the blue and red from the terminal board and extend each of those wires out to the drum switch, then connect as you have indicated.

Hope that helps

Stu
 

Grinderman

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Yes, the 'fly wires' I am referring to are the red and blue leads with female spade connectors on them. Those are (usually) the 'RUN' winding connections.

The 'START' winding is connected to the two threaded studs on the terminal block - and the centrifugal switch is hard-wired inside the motor to be in series with the start winding.

For a normal (non reversing) motor application you put the red and blue wires on the male spade connectors adjacent to the threaded studs and connect line power to the two threaded studs. To reverse the rotation you reverse the red and blue wires at the terminal board.

To use the drum switch you need access to both the START and RUN windings separately at the drum switch, so you have to bring out four wires from the motor - two for the threaded stud connections and then disconnect the blue and red from the terminal board and extend each of those wires out to the drum switch, then connect as you have indicated.

Hope that helps

Stu
On my motor I have 4 wires connected to the terminal board. A blue and yellow( 1.7 ohms between them) and a red and black(4.7 ohms between them. It says to reverse rotation switch red and black (which does work). I assumed the red black were the start windings, am I wrong?
Thanks you so much for your input
 

Grinderman

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No, 115V only
There was a wiring diagram on another forum that I tried. 115V to to 2/6, unplug start windings(red/black) from terminal board and extend out to drum 3/4, make up a set of wires that goes from drum 1/5 back to where start windings were plugged on terminal board.
This setup ran the motor both ways but got hot after a couple minutes of running
Then I tried running the 1/5 wires back to the terminal posts where 115V would normally connect with a cord. This resulted in smoke
 

markba633csi

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Actual smoke? Did the wall breaker trip?
I suspect your red and black wires don't represent the start leg but only the start winding which could explain the problems you are having
We can do some tests. Some motors are more difficult to reverse due to the thermal protector wiring and "hidden connections" behind the terminal board
Mark
ps what is the model number of the motor?
pss do you have a multimeter of some kind?
 
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Grinderman

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Actual smoke? Did the wall breaker trip?
I suspect your red and black wires don't represent the start leg but only the start winding which could explain the problems you are having
We can do some tests. Some motors are more difficult to reverse due to the thermal protector wiring and "hidden connections" behind the terminal board
Mark
ps what is the model number of the motor?
pss do you have a multimeter of some kind?
It’s a Marathon
Model RQB48S17D2109K J
Catalog No B208
Yes, actual smoke. Unplugged it fast so no breaker trip. I do have a multimeter
 

markba633csi

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OK. First do a continuity test on the red and black wires, see if you have a steady low ohms reading (start winding) or a low reading that climbs to infinity (start leg). Put the motor back to stock config and verify operation, no serious damage
I'll check the Marathon site for internal motor wiring info, if there is any
 

markba633csi

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I assume you want the drum switch to control power on/off and direction. Would you be adverse to adding a second switch for power and use the drum for direction? That would be the easy way to go
 

Grinderman

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I assume you want the drum switch to control power on/off and direction. Would you be adverse to adding a second switch for power and use the drum for direction? That would be the easy way to go
I get a steady 4.6 ohms between red black on a digital meter. Motor runs cool and reverses with red/black switch with stock power cord wiring.
I could do a second switch as I still have the original on/off toggle on the lathe if that would be easier
 

Grinderman

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I get a steady 4.6 ohms between red black on a digital meter. Motor runs cool and reverses with red/black switch with stock power cord wiring.
I could do a second switch as I still have the original on/off toggle on the lathe if that would be easier
I noticed on the wiring diagram for the motor it looks like the thermal overload is connected to the run and start windings. Is this normal? Could that be an issue? I thought the thermal was usually connected to the run windings.
 

markba633csi

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Often the thermal switch IS feeding both the run and start circuits. Is there a diagram you haven't posted yet?
My assumption looks to be correct: the red and black wires are only the start winding not the entire start leg.
So you may have to disassemble the motor to figure out how the start leg is configured and the thermal protector wiring. It can be a pain.
My advice: use the second switch for power and the drum for direction only:
Extend the red and black wires and connect them to drum switch 3 and 4. Connect drum switch 1 and 5 back to the motor terminals where red and black came from. Drum 2 and 6 not connected. Connect your second switch in series with the hot line wire to the motor. Done.
 
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RobertB

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You could do it with a different drum switch. If you used a 3 phase drum switch you can control power and direction without opening up the motor.
 

Grinderman

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Often the thermal switch IS feeding both the run and start circuits. Is there a diagram you haven't posted yet?
My assumption looks to be correct: the red and black wires are only the start winding not the entire start leg.
So you may have to disassemble the motor to figure out how the start leg is configured and the thermal protector wiring. It can be a pain.
My advice: use the second switch for power and the drum for direction only:
Extend the red and black wires and connect them to drum switch 3 and 4. Connect drum switch 1 and 5 back to the motor terminals where red and black came from. Drum 2 and 6 not connected. Connect your second switch in series with the hot line wire to the motor. Done.
Thanks for your help, that worked great. I had another idea though. I kind of like the drum handle size/placement on my bench to turn the lathe on/off.
If I would keep my incoming power on drum 2/6 and 1/5 back to the motor, I would have an on/off/on at the
drum.
Then use a DPDT toggle to control direction.
From what I’ve read the toggle wiring would be:
Extend red/black start wires out to 2 center terminals
Connect 4 outboard terminals using a X pattern
Connect 2 wires back to motor from either outboard end of switch
I could do this with a 4 wire cord
Does this sound like it would work?
 

RobertB

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For Dayton type switch with contacts like this:

dayton switch.jpg

It would be wired like this:

wiring.jpg

with the neutral (white) power cord connected as originally.
 

Grinderman

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For Dayton type switch with contacts like this:

View attachment 305457

It would be wired like this:

View attachment 305458

with the neutral (white) power cord connected as originally.
Thank you much for the info. This looks like the best way to go, unfortunately have to buy a new switch to do it. Too bad I couldn’t modify the one I have but that really doesn’t look possible.
 
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