Invention

R.G. said:
It's a truism that you cannot own something you can't defend. If you can't defend it, the Big Boys take it away from you. Kearns is a very smart - and lucky - guy to have been able to prevail in over two decades of legal battles.

The real answer is to outrun them. As noted earlier, make them, get them out there. This prevents someone else from having a valid patent and keeping YOU from making them.
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So what yall are saying is to start making and selling them with no patent. The part will last somone a lifetime, so unless somebody losses it, once everone has one thats the end of the money. I will can probably sell them for $25 to $30, so if I had a profit of $15 to $20 dollars, it would take me 200 to 300 of them to make enough to repay myself for the patent fees. I don't know what kind of steel I would made out of yet, it will be about 1-1.5" round bar stock, and take about 2-3" in length per part. I would think that the part would sell to maybe 50% of the people that reload rifle cases. Say I sold 5000 at a profit of $15 that would be a profit of $75,000 minus say 30% ($22,500) for taxes that leaves me a profit of $52,500. I have no clue how many people in the us reload rifle ammo, but atfer doing this math, there has to be alot more than 10,000 people that reload rifle ammo. Would it be best to get my hands on the other compaines tool like, lee rcbs, etc, and make version of my attachment for there brands, than start sellling them. From my searching, I don't see anything like my attachment that is already being made, but would I have any problems if someone actually does make something like mine. I would think that as along as they don't have a patent on it and I don't try to get a patent on it than there is no problem. Would I start trying to sell them on ebay or to try to get midway to sell them for me.

Thanks for yall help
 
A large portion of the patent process is a search for prior art. Just because you don't see anything on the market does not mean there is no patent issued, or pending. I could be that your idea is not new, and someone already holds a patent on it. Perhaps they just decided not to actually manufacture the item yet. It happens all the time. Patent holders often wait until someone else builds and markets something, waits until the market is developed and then sues.....and wins. It can be a dirty game.

One part of your equation I didn't see is the marketing costs. It takes a bit of capital to do it right, and if you are going patent-less, you do not have time on your side. You need to establish yourself as THE maker of whatever it is. Odd as it sounds, and definitely against popular American opinion, you'd do better financially overall to have it made overseas in volume, then just sell it. Forget making it on your own equipment. You couldn't compete with yourself in that scenario.

One angle might be to run ads in the back of gun mags. Those aren't cheap, but any business that sells to the GP has to spend money advertising if you want any real volume. In the case of the ads like that, delivery time is important. If you promise 6 weeks, then you may think you could have the money up front, then either make the item, or have it made, then send it out. Might work on a small scale, but you're talking a larger volume if you want to "outrun" any possible patent seekers.

And don't minimize engineering. No matter what size or function of your device, spend some time really going over the design and materials choice. It may make the difference between pass or fail.
 
Tony Wells said:
A large portion of the patent process is a search for prior art. Just because you don't see anything on the market does not mean there is no patent issued, or pending. I could be that your idea is not new, and someone already holds a patent on it. Perhaps they just decided not to actually manufacture the item yet. It happens all the time. Patent holders often wait until someone else builds and markets something, waits until the market is developed and then sues.....and wins. It can be a dirty game.

One part of your equation I didn't see is the marketing costs. It takes a bit of capital to do it right, and if you are going patent-less, you do not have time on your side. You need to establish yourself as THE maker of whatever it is. Odd as it sounds, and definitely against popular American opinion, you'd do better financially overall to have it made overseas in volume, then just sell it. Forget making it on your own equipment. You couldn't compete with yourself in that scenario.

One angle might be to run ads in the back of gun mags. Those aren't cheap, but any business that sells to the GP has to spend money advertising if you want any real volume. In the case of the ads like that, delivery time is important. If you promise 6 weeks, then you may think you could have the money up front, then either make the item, or have it made, then send it out. Might work on a small scale, but you're talking a larger volume if you want to "outrun" any possible patent seekers.

And don't minimize engineering. No matter what size or function of your device, spend some time really going over the design and materials choice. It may make the difference between pass or fail.
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Could I just try and sell the invention to say Hornady and let them worry about all the legal issues as far as Patents and marketing, etc. Basicly tell them I have this invention for an attachment to fit on your tool, do you want to buy it from me for say 25% of your net profits on it. If I was able to do this, would I have to worry about them saying no we don't want to buy it from you, then after them seeing it, they get it patented and start selling it leaving me out? Or, would I have problems of them telling me that they sold less than what they actually did, and shorting me on the money?
 
Your only protection in that case would be a well written NDA including a clause indemnifying you from damages incurred in a lawsuit to recover costs of enforcement, along with a preservation clause entitling you to all manufacturing rights.

25% seems a little rich to me, but all you can do is go to the negotiating table with some figure. They likely would want to offer a one time rights purchase rather than a percentage anyway. I would never trust them to figure the percentage of net. Too easy to show a loss or such a low profit you would get nothing.
 
Tony Wells said:
Your only protection in that case would be a well written NDA including a clause indemnifying you from damages incurred in a lawsuit to recover costs of enforcement, along with a preservation clause entitling you to all manufacturing rights.

25% seems a little rich to me, but all you can do is go to the negotiating table with some figure. They likely would want to offer a one time rights purchase rather than a percentage anyway. I would never trust them to figure the percentage of net. Too easy to show a loss or such a low profit you would get nothing.
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Yea, I have no clue what kind of percentage would be reasonable. As far as a one time purchase, I know thats what they would want to do, but if I get so much per part, I might be able to get more in the long run, but if they don't sell, I would be better off getting the one time price. Also, as you said it is too easy for them to show lower profits, maybe a percentage based off the number sold. Do you have any kind of clue what a one time but would be for a part that would sell for say $30. I know it will be mostly based off of how many they think they can sell though. So, if you know of any kind of ballpark figure that a $30 part invention would be bought for, it would be nice to have an idea.
 
What they would do, in the way of market analysis, is to take a figure of possible sales based on what they already have for a customer base. A certain percentage of those buyers would opt to buy a new accessory, some would buy along with a new setup, etc.. They already have invested in this research. Of course, part of it would be just how good the accessory is, what it does, and how attractive the pricing could be made. I couldn't begin to guess what the numbers would be.

You might consider a combination approach. A smaller up front fee, plus a smaller percentage.
 
Your chances are not good at making any money from your idea, but not impossible. You might check to see if there is an inventors club/incubator in your area. That would be a better source of information and support. Stay away from companies that say they help inventors.

The problem is that the big guys aren't going to be interested unless you have a patent. I doubt seriously that you are going to much more than a "thank but no thank you letter" from their legal department with your letter unopened. The big guys have R&D departments that are supposed to come up with such ideas. Your idea is not going to make them look good. When I was in R&D in the Medical device business, we got dozens of product ideas sent to us each month. We weren't even allowed to look at them. I would say that about 1 idea in 1000 made it past legal for our evaluation.

If your device is as good as you think it is, do your preliminary engineering work, get it properly designed and make some. Document everything you do. Try selling from the gun mags and see what happens. As others have stated you run the risk of someone steeling your idea, but a patent won't necessarily prevent that either.

Good luck
Randy
 
Who's the two guys on TV, that you propose your invention to, they'll come and look at it, and if it proves out and they think there is a market for it, they will invest in your product and help you with a patent. Some guys they have invested $100,000 in to get them up and running.
 
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