Clean Solar Panels!

[Janderso]

I'm not sold on solar panels or wind generators. Everyone I know around here that has tried either method has spent a ton of money on their system with little or no return on investment. The panels get covered with snow and ice in the winter months, in the spring they're covered with seeds, and in the fall they're covered with leaves. When they fail parts are either impossible or hard to get. When they are available they're so expensive they totally negate any savings generated by the electricity they produce.

The same is true of wind generators. Anything over 5 years old is so antiquated there are no parts available. In most cases the manufacturers have gone out of business.

As long as I'm on a tangent I'll also include comments on the electric busses the city has purchased. Over the last 2 years they bought 5 Proterra electric busses. Each cost more than twice what a normal diesel would, and currently all 5 are sitting in the garage. Most probably permanently out of service.

The company has gone bankrupt, and no replacement parts are available. Several need new batteries. They were supposed to last 6 years and have a range of 300 miles before needing to be recharged. In a period of less than 2 years they're down to a 100 mile range and are taking 8 to 12 hours to recharge. A couple need new parts for doors, but due to the current state of the manufacturer none are available.

Just to rub salt into the would the city has ordered another 60 electric busses from another manufacturer. This company has reported a $5,000,000.00 loss for the last fiscal year. How long will they last?

Yeah, I've been watching the reality of these EV bus purchases. The tax payer really took it in the shorts Let's not talk about the recent cold weather and EV inadequacy.
I'm not a big fan.

 

[Janderso]

I have a brother that lives in your state. Several years ago they bought a Tesla for the wife's work commute with a home charger. It has worked out great for that. When they came to visit they used their ice vehicle. They want the charge wait times and a little worried about some dead spots with no chargers. Their oldest son has a Tesla he uses for commuting as well. He travels one week a month to rock springs for work. During the winter months the Tesla stays home. The ride I got was fun. Getting in and out wasn't. Something my brother mirrored about his wife's.

They put up solar panels 2 years ago. When I've tried asking about it he doesn't want to talk about it. Apparently the real world feedback from a known numbers guy is something I won't get. Knowing him if the results were good I would hear about it.

Our local power company setup panels in a couple of their subscriptions and sold them. At the time they expected a 20 year payback on a $1000 investment with them doing all the maintenance. Took a long time to sell them and haven't tried since. We have far more cloudy days than sunny days. Location, location, location. Not a one size fits all.

I would be thrilled to get most my power from the sun, just don't think with current (pun intended) technology that is going to happen for me.

It took a bit for me to be convinced to purchase these panels.
Our electric bill was $350-$625 and PG&E raises their rates every year.
Our electric bill went to $16 after we went solar.
Our monthly payment on the equipment is $242. We immediately realized a positive cash flow.
We have a swimming pool and a spa.
As far as the pay back, I haven't put a pencil to it. Just knowing we are saving money every month was a no brainer. But, when the true-up is $1,200, just ass $100 a month to that $242 payment. It will take forever if this true-up doesn't improve.

 

[Smithdoor]

A quick story.
Three years ago, my wife and a friend, who owns a solar company, finally talked me into buying a system.
We were told the panels never need cleaning?

Our “true-up” last year was $75. This year it was $1,200!!!. Our electrical source is PG&E, the most corrupt and expensive municipality in the country. They own the PUC.

I had a study done )no charge) by the company we purchased from. They said there are two main factors causing the reduction in production.
Dirty panels and/or excessive shade from a neighbors oak tree. Well, the tree was there last year and the panels are very dirty.

I think it was a sales pitch, no cleaning, no mess, no fuss.

The pic shows the upper clean panels and the lower dirty panels. This was after a three inch rain a few days ago!!

He uses <20 ppm water filtered through a Reverse Osmosis system on his truck. $166 per visit. I signed up for twice a year cleaning. Hopefully it will be worth it.

Any thoughts?

I agree who owes the PUC.
Solar panels can clean from the ground like a windows.

The road dust is like a sun screen.
Where I live no one cleans there panels.

Off grid power save the most money.

I also have PG&E

Dave

 

[Provincial]

Our solar system has been frustrating so far. I have three phase power, and the contractor wasn't familiar with that. As a result, we got committed to the system before we discovered that the power company (Pacific Power) had provided a jackleg system using two residential transformers instead of a real, three-transformer system. They insisted on upgrading, at a huge cost, in order to connect, using the excuse that it was illegal to use the old type system because of an inadequate (and now illegal) grounding circuit. The Public Utility Commission (which I call the Practically Useless Commission) was of no help. If it was a standard residential installation, the costs would have been paid by the power company.

Because of all this, it took 18 months to get our system online, a month after the Winter Solstice. Part of this was because the transformer bank the power company installed proved to be faulty, and part because the inverter installers mixed up elements of the inverter system that were matched sets. So far the output of the system has been negligible, because of short days and cloudy weather. Here there is a schedule from April 1 until March 31 of the next year. You pay for what you use off the grid until your system exceeds the consumption and power starts flowing into the grid. You get credit for the excess, and in the following Winter months it is credited against your bill. If you produce more power than you use over the official year, the power company doesn't have to pay you for it. See the PUC comment above.

Since my power rate went from $0.10 per KWH in November to $0.14 per KWH in December, I'm expecting my payback period to be much shorter than the 17 years calculated when we negotiated the installation. Rates are expected to double here soon.

I installed a system bigger than I think I'll need for present use. I did this because I have places I intend to install split heat pump systems to make workspaces more comfortable. I heat my 40x60 workshop with a waste oil heater that is fueled with oil donated by an auto repair shop and a large logging operation. It averages about $200.00 a year to maintain the heater unit. All I have to do is pick up the totes of oil and pump them into my tank.

 

[MikeInOr]

When the "Solar Guys" knocked at my door I am pretty sure one of them was on my door step a month prior trying to sell me a Rainbow vacuum cleaner.

I am sorry, the whole solar industry and all of their promises just smell like a scam to me. When I was a kid solar hot water was the "in thing". What happened to that? I think if the solar industry actually told the truth instead of a bunch B.S. sales promises nobody would actually buy a system. I have heard of people having a hard time selling their house because of long term commitments with solar providers. I have also heard of home buyers getting screwed by the commitments to solar providers because they failed to read the fine print when buying a house. I have also heard that the energy generated from the panels diminishes over time necessitating panel replacement to remain viable. From everything I have heard the actual savings fall very short of the sales promises.

Unfortunately most electric utilities are for profit companies. As such they are going to extract their pound of flesh from you if you are connected to their system whether or not you have solar panels. Their only motive is profit!

 

[cathead]

I have experimented with wind. I have experimented with solar. I have come to the conclusion that
my time is better spent on other things. Solar is more efficient in the cold but the panels need to be
almost vertical to keep the snow from accumulating. Also they have about a 30 year useful life as
they degrade. I still have a few panels so may just use them for charging some batteries occasionally at some remote location. Wind power experiences it's own set of problems. I had fun in the experimentation stage but
still could see fooling around with some passive solar. With the harsh weather we have in northern Minnesota,
the whole thing goes out the window with the extended below zero weather we have. I still use a battery/solar panel
setup in the summertime to keep the deer out of my garden area. It's good for that..........

 

[wachuko]

We have had good luck so far with ours… but these past weeks the pollen has been ridiculously high and everything is covered in yellow dust. I need to check the production numbers to compare.



38 - 400 watts panels with two Tesla batteries. 27 panels in the back (photo) and 11 on the side... Worked out well aesthetically, as you can't see them from the street...

We pay 225.00 monthly for the system and around 16.00 to the power company (their minimal charge)… and, so far, we have an 800.00 credit from the power company for the overproduction…. I still need to change the water heater for a heat pump unit (way more efficient).

We will see how that changes when the shop is connected to the house.

System was turned on mid February of last year…

 

[Downunder Bob]

Our solar system has been frustrating so far. I have three phase power, and the contractor wasn't familiar with that. As a result, we got committed to the system before we discovered that the power company (Pacific Power) had provided a jackleg system using two residential transformers instead of a real, three-transformer system. They insisted on upgrading, at a huge cost, in order to connect, using the excuse that it was illegal to use the old type system because of an inadequate (and now illegal) grounding circuit. The Public Utility Commission (which I call the Practically Useless Commission) was of no help. If it was a standard residential installation, the costs would have been paid by the power company.

Because of all this, it took 18 months to get our system online, a month after the Winter Solstice. Part of this was because the transformer bank the power company installed proved to be faulty, and part because the inverter installers mixed up elements of the inverter system that were matched sets. So far the output of the system has been negligible, because of short days and cloudy weather. Here there is a schedule from April 1 until March 31 of the next year. You pay for what you use off the grid until your system exceeds the consumption and power starts flowing into the grid. You get credit for the excess, and in the following Winter months it is credited against your bill. If you produce more power than you use over the official year, the power company doesn't have to pay you for it. See the PUC comment above.

Since my power rate went from $0.10 per KWH in November to $0.14 per KWH in December, I'm expecting my payback period to be much shorter than the 17 years calculated when we negotiated the installation. Rates are expected to double here soon.

I installed a system bigger than I think I'll need for present use. I did this because I have places I intend to install split heat pump systems to make workspaces more comfortable. I heat my 40x60 workshop with a waste oil heater that is fueled with oil donated by an auto repair shop and a large logging operation. It averages about $200.00 a year to maintain the heater unit. All I have to do is pick up the totes of oil and pump them into my tank.

Ha! $0.10 per KWH to $0.14 per KWH. That is a joke here in Austarlia we pay from38c to over 50c per KWH and only get 6c for feed in tarriff.. However because of high cost of electricity it does pay to have solar panels here, except in a few small areas of high cloud cover. I'm contemplating putting in a house battery, and maybe some extra panels. Also thinking of getting an electric car for city running around, they are quite popular for city commuting, but not much good for long distance. Our other car is a diesel used for towing our caravan, so will be keeping that for a while

A transport company in Sydney is experimenting with a couple of long haul semi trucks, running on battery packs. They have taken a couple regular prime movers, removed the diesel engine, fuel tanks and transmission. A set battery packs has been made that fits in the engine compartment, and an electric motor is fitted in place of the gearbox. The truck leaves Sydney fully loaded, and with a full battery, headed for Brisbane about 900Km. At about halfway the truck pulls into change over depot, the crew change out the nearly flat battery for a fully charged one, while the driver gets out has a meal and refreshes. By the time time the driver is ready to move out the truck is ready to go. It's early days yet, but the initial results are very promising. The drivers are reporting much less fatigue, faster turnaroung times. the electric truck is just as fast on the flat and faster uphills.

 

[Janderso]

Since my power rate went from $0.10 per KWH in November to $0.14 per KWH in December, I'm expecting my payback period to be much shorter than the 17 years calculated when we negotiated the installation. Rates are expected to double here soon.

I think we average over $.40 per KWh

 

[BGHansen]

We live in mid-Michigan; our solar set up has 26 panels rated at 380W (22 of them) and 370W (4 of them) for about 9500W max output. We see some pollen, dust and dirt on the panels, but they get cleaned pretty well when it rains. Our biggest issue is snow. I've looked at our output in the morning after a snowstorm and see (for example) 0.50kW of generation. We have a floor broom with a very-extended handle; broom off the snow and our output goes up by 4X - 6X.



We're North of you with a ground-mount system instead of roof mount. The rule of thumb for panel inclination angle is to set them at your latitude. We're at 43 deg.; our panels are at that angle and clean off pretty easily. I guess you could do a bit of an experiment and purposely roll out some window screen or something to simulate dust/dirt and see how it affects your output. Our system uses a Generac invertor. They have a nice app that gives us lots of live data.

There are many sources for solar panel brushes/squeegees. I see them running from $200 - $600.



And on the "is it worth it" topic, it depends on your motivation. In our case, our power company charges $0.126/kWh and gives us $0.056/kWh if we send power back up the pole. We also have a $30/month service fee regardless of usage. In 2023, we generated 12.2 MWh of solar, we drew 0.277 MWh off the grid, and our house drew 10.6 MWh. We also have 18kWh of battery backup so the math isn't so simple (12.2 MWh + 0.277 MWh doesn't equal 10.6 MWh). Our accumulative electric bill for 2023 was under $400, before we added the solar it was ~$2100.

Our system ran around $40K after the 30% federal tax credit. If we saved $2000 a year it'd be a 20-year payback assuming no gain on the initial $40K investment. We will not see a net payback within my wife and my lifetime. But our motivation was to get a little greener, and give us (albeit limited) power backup during an outage. Having a bit of OCD, for backup we have what I term as "summer mode" and "winter mode". Summer mode is running refrigeration, winter mode is running the furnace.

Long story longer, we had a big windstorm in late-August 2023 that took out the power. The batteries kicked in instantly; TV in the kitchen didn't even flicker. Our 18kWh of backup is limited, the transfer box only switches 4 circuits (we power our well, kitchen frig, internet(for Generac) and our propane furnace). We have 2 small freezers which I ran extension cords to, plus our router. We were drawing about 300 W/hr. with that load on the system. On a sunny day, we'll make >60 kWh; no issue charging the 18 kWh batteries and absorbing ~7 kW of normal daily house "the power is out" draw. However, we've made as little as 1.6 kW in a day; our worse 5-day total has been 12 kW. We'd be in trouble during the summer as we'd lose the batteries after 3-4 days IF we had the two freezers and frigs running and crappy solar.

In the winter, I'd hand-truck the two freezers outside and let Mother Nature take care of them. Our major draw is the propane furnace which uses 350W when it's running. Daily draw would be around 3 kW, so winter back up mode with crappy solar is about 4-5 days. To us, it's nice to have the limited power backup though a Generac propane bypass generator would have run a lot less than the solar set up.

Bruce