I Got Burnt!!

[brino]

This thread is extremely informative

I absolutely agree.

And I do NOT think we are too far off topic, as Coomba did ask how to evaluate a mill.
wrmiller discussed checking the table for flat in post #45.
Coolidge covered testing/adjusting the ways in post #55.

Thanks All!
-brino

 

[joshua43214]

Not picking on you Josh, but unless you've driven a 12Z you don't know what you're talking about. This thing has a bunch more mass/rigidity than any of the other rf45s I've seen/used. Matt's new 9x40 is probably the closest I've seen but I'm reserving judgement until I see one.

I follow you.
My point is that this is just 800lb benchtop RF clone with an over-sized work envelope. You can buy this same basic machine for under $2k at Grizzly or anywhere else. CO's big selling point was better quality control, in house finishing, bigger work envelope, and turn key accessories like DRO's and CNC. CO is not the only company that works with the factory, QMC, DroPros, Grizzly, and many others also do the same. A bigger work envelope does not equal a bigger machine.
Matt's PM45 (this seems to be the gold standard for cheap imports around here) weighs 300lbs more and costs the same. Matt's new 9x40 (the PM940) weighs 700lbs more than the CO and costs only a bit more.

Please understand, I am not criticizing the CO or a decision to buy it. I really wanted this machine, and I would still love to have it. I would rather have it than my current machine. I chose not to buy it because I can get a similar machine for far less, I have no intention of doing CNC, and I can just live with a smaller work envelope. If I really needed a machine with that capacity, I would have picked up a proper floor model mill, not a bench top machine.

 

[coolidge]

This thread is extremely informative to a fledgling hobby machinist thinking about buying a milling machine (like me). Thanks for all the voices of experience who have weighed in! You've put into great perspective the role of expectations and the ability to identify and rectify issues with this type of machine (or any machine, apparently). One concern I have is that if I bought a machine, say from Grizzly or Precision Matthews, I wouldn't be in a good position to judge what was okay or at least normal and what was something that would need to be dealt with as a warranty issue (other than things which were extremely obvious). I think I will make it my business to educate myself a little more about critical and non-critical defects before I jump into ordering a machine--and this thread has gotten me off to a good start.

Bill

Good idea, we have all been there. 8-9 years ago as a noob I dove in head first and dropped $10,000 on a RongFu 45 CNC mill. 2 years later it was in a scrap yard. The mill was junk the CNC conversion was junk, the CNC seller flat out lied to me. Lesson learned.

I was on a machinist forum venting my frustration one day when a machinist gave me some advice I will never forget, "You are buying a machine not a friend." That's a game some of these people who will sell you junk will play, they string you along acting like your friend and you don't want to confront the guy because he's trying to be your best friend. But when they have exhausted your good will then they drop you like a hot rock, refuse to take your call or answer email and you can't get your money back. Again lesson learned. So I treat any purchase now like a business transaction I don't get friendly with the seller. That's not a license to be a jackass though.

 

[coolidge]

You can buy this same basic machine for under $2k at Grizzly or anywhere else.

No you can't, provide a link then.

 

[markknx]

Bill, and the 9x40 seems to price out about the same. well once you figure the power feeds and stand. But I have seen neither machine.
Mark

 

[joshua43214]

No you can't, provide a link then.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Heavy-Duty-Benchtop-Mill-Drill-with-Power-Feed-and-Tapping/G0761
800lb, 2hp, bench top RF clone. Even has power feed. Under 2k.

http://www.boltontool.com/Lathe/milling-machine/9-1-2-x-32-gear-head-milling-machine
800lb, 2hp, bench top RF clone, under $1700

Notice they all have the same faceplate and controls. They are all the same basic machine. I suspect you are thinking that a bigger work envelope is the same as a bigger better machine. Bigger machines weigh more. Anyone can add a big work table, you can even buy over sized tables on Ebay and make your own CO mill.

 

[wrmiller]

The shipping weight on my mill was over 1200lbs, with a spindly steel stand that a 60 year old man easily pressed over his head. 'Maybe' 150 lbs. Maybe. Not a cast iron stand that is added to the total machine weight and adds little rigidity. And no, it's not "just" a larger envelope. The castings are significantly larger (how else are you going to get a larger work envelope?) and very well webbed. The head to column interface on this mill has to be seen to be believed. I have run several different RF clones and the 12Z and IMO they don't compare. Others may or may not agree, but that's what opinions are made of. Other than coolidge, who else here has run a 12Z? Or are we just comparing spec sheets? That practice, as others here have pointed out, is dubious at best.

Not trying to convince anyone here of anything. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but some are just a bit more informed than others. I'll say no more on the subject.

 

[coolidge]

http://www.grizzly.com/products/Heavy-Duty-Benchtop-Mill-Drill-with-Power-Feed-and-Tapping/G0761
800lb, 2hp, bench top RF clone. Even has power feed. Under 2k.

http://www.boltontool.com/Lathe/milling-machine/9-1-2-x-32-gear-head-milling-machine
800lb, 2hp, bench top RF clone, under $1700

Notice they all have the same faceplate and controls. They are all the same basic machine. I suspect you are thinking that a bigger work envelope is the same as a bigger better machine. Bigger machines weigh more. Anyone can add a big work table, you can even buy over sized tables on Ebay and make your own CO mill.

Neither of those machines compare to the CO 12z. You choose to ignore the much larger work cube and table but in the machine market its common the larger the work cube the more expensive the machine. You are also ignoring the design changes to the Z axis on the CO 12z which supports this larger work cube, both the mills you linked to still have the old style puny Z axis saddle. Come on the Y axis travel on the Grizzly is only 7.5 inches and only 6.8 inches on the Bolton vs 12 inches on the CO 12z.

Bah I won't debate this with you further.

 

[coolidge]

The shipping weight on my mill was over 1200lbs, with a spindly steel stand that a 60 year old man easily pressed over his head. 'Maybe' 150 lbs. Maybe. Not a cast iron stand that is added to the total machine weight and adds little rigidity. And no, it's not "just" a larger envelope. The castings are significantly larger (how else are you going to get a larger work envelope?) and very well webbed. The head to column interface on this mill has to be seen to be believed. I have run several different RF clones and the 12Z and IMO they don't compare. Others may or may not agree, but that's what opinions are made of. Other than coolidge, who else here has run a 12Z? Or are we just comparing spec sheets? That practice, as others here have pointed out, is dubious at best.

Not trying to convince anyone here of anything. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but some are just a bit more informed than others. I'll say no more on the subject.

I have owned both machines so I'm just trying to give people accurate and honest information. I think most will agree you don't get all that beefed up cast iron, a much larger table, and a much larger work cube for free geesh. Do either of these linked machines have upgraded spindle bearings? My guess is no. Again I'm not a CO fanboy but lets be fair.

 

[Coomba]

Ok let me address some of your questions, but first I have to say, some of what you guys talk about is miles above my head. I did a lot of research before buying this mill. Talking to different company's and picking their brains from what other people educated me in. And this was the first places I visited. The reason I chose the 12Zjr. was because of its table size, weight, and it has a square column, which I was told was a big plus. Yes I do have two complete mills. Yes it would have saved a lot of trouble if they just would have sent the parts. I was told the 12Zjr. was the same exacts mill as the 12Z, but just a bit smaller. This proved not to be true when I tore it down to inspect it for the damaged. When I reported this back to Paul he was dumb founded . Guess they really know their machines. Maybe that's why the didn't just send the parts, they didn't know what they were. Believe me I know when you buy something from China your gonna be working on it right out of the box. This isn't my first duck hunt. Like I said before this was a replacement a second mill. Right now I'm kind of torn, I could sell both of these mills to replace my lost money, or I could use the parts from both and make one, but then I think about some of the technical stuff you guys mention and I'm at a loss. I have been talking to Matt at Precision Matthews and he has a little smaller mill which he says is much better quality then the CO. but cost a bit more. it the model PM450G made in Taiwan. Has anyone heard of it?