PM Matthews Taiwanese Mills' Quality

Geswearf

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I've written about my interest in PM benchtop mills. One thing about them that seems to be striking, is the number of issues with the smaller mills that have been mentioned here. Sure, if a buyer has a problem and is familiar with this website he is going to describe the problem in hopes of a quick solution. I've noticed there seems to have been a significant number of issues compared to the number of guys who proudly post about receiving a PM mill or anticipating the arrival of their new 'baby'. It would be one thing if there were only a few complaints and thousands of these mills being sold, but at least on this website, I think the number of factory mistakes compared to the number of mills sold is a significant percentage. I'm distinguishing between shipping damage, which has not really been an issue and defective parts.

I will acknowledge that I'm impressed with PM's willingness to work with the owners to resolve their issues.

Did full size Bridgeport (and quality clones) have these problems? Is this a sign of manufacturing today (i.e. spotty quality control).

Any other comments?
 
I have a PM 727M mill. So here is my take on the issues posted here. PM is well represented here, so this will naturally seem like there are many issues that people have. PM is generally very good to work with on issues, but coming here to ask and share issues seems normal to me especially being the larger number of owners. I feel overall PM machines are of decent quality for the money spent. Also, we have to remember that a lot of users of these machines have never used machine tools or have limited experience with them. If you buy a machine of Chinese decent its always a bit of a kit that may need some fine tuning to make it work well. Thats where QMT shines they are willing to help make it right. I have spoken mostly about the Chinese machines, but am sure that the Taiwanese machines are a notch above but could use a bit of the same fine tuning. A quality American machine isn't in the budget or even available to many of us Just my two cents worth.
 
People often forget that they are much more likely to mention issues than the lack of issues. On the internet, that effect is multiplied. I'd bet that, as a percentage, there aren't that many problems. Not just PM but most of the sellers.

It's also more likely that people will complain about things on a new machine they would ignore on a used one. It's normal and expected. Particularly when you're dropping thousands of dollars on a nice machine that is heavy and very difficult to ship back if there is a problem. And of course, shipping damage. Which you rightly mentioned is not the fault of the seller, assuming they packaged it properly, which they seem to. They certainly did in my case. Didn't stop the carrier from beating the crap out of the crate, but it got here safe. Some minor damage to the tool box, but everything was there. And that box is more of a shipping box really.

More importantly, they do make honest efforts to fix issues that do come up. I think that's more important. There will always be issues. What they do about it matters more to me.
 
Factory mistakes or are you just complaining that it doesn't meets one's expectations. I think it is quite the contrary to what you think, they sell thousands of machines a year and you hear the occasional issue posted here. Most people post here because there is extensive knowledge base, and probably the most threads/posts relating to PM/QMT machines. I have interfaced with 100's of machine owners through this form and others, and I would say overall that the number issues relative to the number of machine sold for PM/QMT is far fewer than other machines in the same category. Since other US distributors often sell the same machine with a different badge, the same basic issues would come up with all of them. That being said, it also has to do with the build specifications and that can differ between the US suppliers.

You also need to look a price to performance/quality, sure you can go out and spend 2 or 3 times more on a new Bridgeport mill or similar, and you are paying for a higher level of quality, but is it 2-3X better. Not really, and you also need to look at the market, you do not see industrial companies buying bench top mills or small lathes. You can read the same or worse new machine issues with other brands. I can tell you that most (lower cost) machines are a lot worse, and technical support is dismal. Let alone getting parts. I already had that experience with a top tier company that I bought a benchtop mill from years ago, and resolving all the mill issues never occurred, let alone getting parts. I have purchased two lathes from PM/QMT, I have had no issues with them, and QMT/PM and also Eisen are probably the two companies that I consider to have excellent reputations as far as taking care of any problems and offering very good machines at the price point.
 
Grizzly has also gotten a lot better overall- fewer problems than in the old early days
and their documentation has improved markedly
 
Remember this is the PM forum. You should not be hearing much about other companies equipment on this particular forum. PM goes to the expense and trouble to maintain a forum just for its products and customers. Furthermore, they actually appear to read what we post! There are lots of other brands mentioned on the open portion of HM site, but I do not see other mill/lathe companies going to the trouble of sponsoring a forum just for their products.
 
You know the old saying.

When you’re in business “a complaint is a compliment”.

Without feedback it’s tough to improve. This sponsored forum has to be some of the best product development dollars PM could ever spend.

John
 
I'll say that as one who had never owned a mill or lathe - when I started looking, reading, finding forums and youtube videos - I was a complete noobie. I kept seeing PM products in posts, and positive reviews, and issues noted with help offered. When I got ready to buy, seemed natural to give PM a call. Matt helped, explained products. Got a 940 mill. Couple years later, got a lathe, had some shipping issues, partly my fault. PM went above in helping to resolve.
 
People often forget that they are much more likely to mention issues than the lack of issues. On the internet, that effect is multiplied. I'd bet that, as a percentage, there aren't that many problems. Not just PM but most of the sellers.

It's also more likely that people will complain about things on a new machine they would ignore on a used one. It's normal and expected. Particularly when you're dropping thousands of dollars on a nice machine that is heavy and very difficult to ship back if there is a problem. And of course, shipping damage. Which you rightly mentioned is not the fault of the seller, assuming they packaged it properly, which they seem to. They certainly did in my case. Didn't stop the carrier from beating the crap out of the crate, but it got here safe. Some minor damage to the tool box, but everything was there. And that box is more of a shipping box really.

More importantly, they do make honest efforts to fix issues that do come up. I think that's more important. There will always be issues. What they do about it matters more to me.

Someone I used to work for had this statistical fact about positive vs negative experiences and it was as you say. From memory it was along the lines of "your 10 times more likely to tell someone about a problem with something than to tell people about a good outcome with something."

Stu
 
Factory mistakes or are you just complaining that it doesn't meets one's expectations. I think it is quite the contrary to what you think, they sell thousands of machines a year and you hear the occasional issue posted here. Most people post here because there is extensive knowledge base, and probably the most threads/posts relating to PM/QMT machines. I have interfaced with 100's of machine owners through this form and others, and I would say overall that the number issues relative to the number of machine sold for PM/QMT is far fewer than other machines in the same category. Since other US distributors often sell the same machine with a different badge, the same basic issues would come up with all of them. That being said, it also has to do with the build specifications and that can differ between the US suppliers.

You also need to look a price to performance/quality, sure you can go out and spend 2 or 3 times more on a new Bridgeport mill or similar, and you are paying for a higher level of quality, but is it 2-3X better. Not really, and you also need to look at the market, you do not see industrial companies buying bench top mills or small lathes. You can read the same or worse new machine issues with other brands. I can tell you that most (lower cost) machines are a lot worse, and technical support is dismal. Let alone getting parts. I already had that experience with a top tier company that I bought a benchtop mill from years ago, and resolving all the mill issues never occurred, let alone getting parts. I have purchased two lathes from PM/QMT, I have had no issues with them, and QMT/PM and also Eisen are probably the two companies that I consider to have excellent reputations as far as taking care of any problems and offering very good machines at the price point.
I was not complaining, merely observing that the factory makes mistakes, which is imo, not PM's fault. A quick recall without going back to refresh my memory, one guy had an extensive thread about his quill. The interior taper was not machined properly, and PM rectified that, after (he bought a $500+ precision gage bar and) described the problem. A second owner showed a picture of a quill with a gouge on a shoulder due to a screw that had been tightened and someone else here commented the machining looked about as good as a student machinist's first effort on a lathe (my paraphrase - btw, the owner solved the rough feeling travel of the quill by stoning the upset steel of the quill). I think someone else had a minor problem with his quill, too. In all of the cases, it was either easy to rectify the problem or PM stepped up promptly. I noted that in my first post above, and I am happy to know that and will probably buy a machine from PM. There do seem to be a few defensive comments here about PM when the factory makes mistakes, but this doesn't speak to the issue at hand. If the factory makes mistakes, that is not PM's fault, nor does making fewer errors than everyone else absolve them from making those errors. Do two wrongs make a right?

I'm well aware that unhappy customers are more prone to writing negative reviews, and I seek them out on other websites. It is easy to differentiate unrealistic expectations from real problems, and I've not seen anyone writing a thread here who was surprised his purchase was not as expected.

I've not been aware that PM sells thousands of benchtop mills in a year. I care not about full size knee mills or lathes, i(n their total sales) since I'm not looking to purchase them, and I've not even read many threads here about those machines let alone problems with them. The impression I've gotten - eroneous or correct - is that guys buying a PM benchtop mill come here to read about them and often post they are anxiously awaiting delivery. If those same guys have teething problems with their new toy, many write here first for help and then turn to PM. Were it the other way 'round, we would never hear about it because PM's customer service is so good. Nobody in any of the threads I've read has said PM abandoned them, ignored their pleas for help, or let them grow old and gray waiting on the phone (or older and grayer, if you are there already).

I don't know if Bridgeports were the best mills in their day...and the most expensive to buy. In fact, the term Bridgeport mill seems to have become common usage for a type of milling machine, much like band aid covers all adhesive bandages, and kleenex is used for all paper tissues. Perhaps it was unfair to compare the best (if Bridgeport was on top) to relatively inexpensive Taiwanese mills but the question was legitimate. The few Bport mills that I've seen look to be quite complex and the question still stands. Did these have manufacturing problems or was quality control back then far far better than it is today? It is possible we don't have enough members on this website who were young machinists back when factories bought new Bports to be able to answer this question.

Again, I don't care about other vendors, other machines, other countries' brands. I'm looking at PM because they have good customer service, a decent product, and proximity and I'm not comparing them to anyone, except themselves. If their mills have a significant record of factory problems, I want to know this before I leap. Nothing more, nothing less.
 
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