Should I use Anti-seize when re-assembling the VN-12?

Junkmaster

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Hello All,

I've given the VN-12 a fresh coat of paint (pictures and stories soon to come) and I'm ready to start re-assembling it. Should I use anti-seize on the bolts and screws? I want to do the right thing. When I repaint the machine after the next 70 years, I don't want to worry about seized bolts. I also don't want the bolts vibrating loose every 30 years.

When I was disassembling it all the screws and bolts were tight, but came out with a reasonable amount of effort. Almost all of the bolts/screws were covered in a black oily liquid. I'm assuming it was some type of oil that had seeped into the threads over the years. The few that did not have the oil, were holding the motor and motor mounting plate. I guess it is hard to get oil all the way up there.

Evan R.
 
antiseize is messy. if your not keeping the machine in an enviroment thats corrosive, and have no real reason to worry about taking it apart again, , , , then NO. just a little oil of any kind on the thread and tighten to a reasonable torque for the size of the fastener. . . . . . if you have hands and arms like an ape, take it easy, if your a computer wizzard and don't arm wrestle at the pub every night, then tighten them up. . . . tight.
 
Hello All,

I've given the VN-12 a fresh coat of paint (pictures and stories soon to come) and I'm ready to start re-assembling it. Should I use anti-seize on the bolts and screws? I want to do the right thing. When I repaint the machine after the next 70 years, I don't want to worry about seized bolts. I also don't want the bolts vibrating loose every 30 years.

When I was disassembling it all the screws and bolts were tight, but came out with a reasonable amount of effort. Almost all of the bolts/screws were covered in a black oily liquid. I'm assuming it was some type of oil that had seeped into the threads over the years. The few that did not have the oil, were holding the motor and motor mounting plate. I guess it is hard to get oil all the way up there.

Evan R.

Alternatively you could use Loctite (Blue), if you're worried about things vibrating loose. It's designed for fasteners that need to be released without using heat, and will protect the threads from corrosion.

Save the anti-seize for the fixings on your car exhaust. ;)


M
 
I still have to reassemble mine. Got delayed by son's illness. But I don't plan on using anything than a little light oil to keep them rust-free.
The machine won't come apart- it is well designed, and sturdy as a rock. Eight bolts hold the base to the 400 pound column, and gravity helps. It's not going anywhere. The motor should be bolted down tightly, but don't overdo it. In fact, I have to go easy on the bolts to avoid stripping them. I guess I qualify for the Gorilla description below (6'2", 270).

Maybe Frank or Cal can jump in here and correct me if I'm wrong, but, unless you are in a damp environment, I'm just use a little oil and that's all.
 
Painting the VN-12

I didn't like the multicolored paint scheme. The black, white, green and orange didn't go with the shop decor. A coat of paint was required.

I started chipping the paint off with a scaler from HF. It worked really well up to the point that my 25 year old Craftsman compressor ran out of breath. The compressor runs for about 45 minutes to fill the 20 gallon tank.

I moved to wire brush wheels and cups on the 4 1/2 angle grinder. Yep, sparks flew, ozone reeked, and the motor stopped. The $12.95 angle grinder from HF proved it was disposable.

I read Nelson's comment he had good luck with Citrus Strip. 35 years ago I attempted to chemically strip some paint from something. All I could remember is it didn't work very well, stunk awful, and gave me a head-ache for the better part of a week. But, Nelson was using it in his basement and said the smell wasn't bad at all. Off to box store I ran.

What a difference 35 years makes. This stuff took of 2, 3, sometimes 4 coats of paint in one application. It had very little smell, and what smell it had was pleasant. On the back of the ram where the long arch slopes down, some of the paint literally slid off on to the floor.

With all the paint stripped, I turned to degreasing. This seems like such an obvious task. Spray, scrub, wipe. How hard could it be? I must have used five rolls of paper towels. I still could pick up a lot of oily residue when I wiped a dry towel across parts of the machine. After some number of days of trying to get it clean, I went to the auto parts store and asked for a serious cleaner for a greasy old milling machine. The guy pointed me towards Purple Cleaner/Degreaser. I told him my troubles and about the tennis elbow I was getting by wipe-on, wipe-off. He said not to wipe off, but rinse off. Dry with a clean paper towel. Hmmm, I didn't thin RINSING could really be all that important. Two short hours later I was done. Purple Cleaner, wire brushes, steel wool, tennis elbow and a bucket with warm water had cleaned (and rinsed) years of gunk, grime and embedded chips. Whew, that felt good.

Now, I had a bare naked machine rusting in the wind. I had not thought about buying any primer in advance. Off to big box I run, to see what I could get at 9:45 on a Saturday night. I was a little rushed in my choices, but I finally chose Rustoleum self etching primer. I liked and feared the "etching" part of the name. Etching would give it a good surface to bond too, right? But would it gouge my beautiful dove tails and load bearing surfaces? Enquiring minds wanted to know before 4 cans of this stuff were released into Eden.

At 10:15 PM I'm spraying self-etching primer on a piece of bare sheet metal in a garbage bag (deep haunting voice in my head kept saying "Contain the ACID!"). How in the hell do kids huff this stuff? I wanted to let it dry for an hour or two before I confirmed it wouldn't harm the surface. I knew I should go to bed, but the machine was rusting before my very eyes, at least that's what the voice was saying.

Out comes the painters tape an razor knife. Taping every machined surface, placard, shaft, knob etc. Whew, just barely saved it. It's about be-witching hour in my little Eden. I had to check the sheet metal and the ACID paint.

It looked fine. In fact it looked good. I scratched it with my finger nail, it didn't budge, I fully expected it to peel up. It had dried probably four hours. That's impressive. Of course, with a out come that good, who could sleep? Might as well prime the beauty before she collapses into a pile of rust. It has been, like, 12 hours since I took off the last of the paint.

A short time later everything was primed and drying. My head was spinning from some lack of sleep, some propellant but mostly giddiness over saving the life of such a noble machine as the Van Norman 12. It was, at last, time to go to bed.

Evan R.
P.S. You are all asking yourselves "Where the hell are the pictures! We want pictures!" Those with stignatism(sp?) might want to look away now. A dyslexic, drunk monkey ran into the shop and took these pictures. And these were the best of the best.
PowerFeedTransmissionNaked_small.jpgPiecesPartsPrimed_small.jpgPiecesPartsPrimed2_small.jpg

DSC00016.JPG DSC00014.JPG DSC00011.JPG Photo0382.jpg RamPrimed-Small.jpg PiecesPartsPrimed_small.jpg PowerFeedTransmissionNaked_small.jpg PiecesPartsPrimed2_small.jpg
 
You could certainly use anti seize, and I wouldnt worry about bolts getting loose over it. Providing the torque on the fasteners is right, your good to go.

Haaving the anti seize on the fasteners could help getting the true torque values your looking for. Its better than a dry thread when torqued. Most just use plain oil on the threads.

But,,If youe asembling the machine, and painting it after wards, then I wouldnt use either. In that case, I would wrap the threads with teflon tape instead. It will lube the threads, without any mess to boot.

I would not use loc tite. Proper torque is the best train of thought here.
 
Damn nice job Evan....

I'm glad the Citrustrip worked for ya. Being in a basement, I have to be careful about fumes.

I love Rustoleum. It's easy to get, easy to use, and it looks good. What more can you ask for?
 
Anti-seize is a good idea, particularly on large bolts like the base to column bolts.

As Paul said, use proper torque. That means using a torque wrench. If you've worked a lot with a torque wrench you will develop a feel for how tight various bolts need to be tightened. A lot of guys that consider themselves good mechanics over tighten small bolts and under tighten large bolts. It takes lots of experience develop a proper feel for tightening.

I like "Krud-Kutter" for cleaning machines with decades of industrial oil and grime on them. Purple Power, Zep Purple, etc. are similar products. Many a based on 2-methoxyethanol or a variant: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-Methoxyethanol
Use adequate ventilation if you use this type of product!

I don't strip machines to bare metal unless the paint is bad and flaking off. Sand smooth, fill chips with Bondo 907 Glazing and Spot Putty; sand, prime, fill, repeat...

Be careful using a wire wheel to strip old machines. A lead based filler was often used and the wire wheel can put a lot of lead dust into the air.

It's my understanding that etching primers are for modern sheet metal (i.e. automotive) and should not be used on bare cast iron. I use Rust-o-leum, but there are better products out there. An automotive high fill primer is great for doing a nice paint job, but stay away from the 2 part stuff, since the isocyanate hardeners are VERY TOXIC; most require a supplied air respirator to safely apply. NEVER, EVER USE A 2-PART PAINT WITHOUT READING THE MSDS FOR BOTH THE PAINT AND THE HARDENER! Isocyanates can screw up your brain in a single exposure and guys have actually died...

Cal
 
Thanks for the good information. I like the idea of the Teflon tape, I've only got about 30 rolls of it floating around the shop. I thought about the lead paint dust as well. I had the garage door open and a box fan blowing dust out. And I have a reasonable respirator I bought a while back. I worry about the shop foremen getting on their fur and licking it off. They are in the thumb nail below.

I did not know about the two part paints being that toxic. Luckily I didn't use them. The Lord watches out for fools and children. I'm too old to fall into the second group.

I went and found a torquing chart online here , they offer a pdf for download here. I have two variables undefined; bolt grade and required clamping force.

I am guessing the bolts are mid-grade (5). I'll play it by ear for clamping force. This ought to be interesting: (Unknown X Unknown = 2 Ignorant 2 know better).

Again, thanks for all your help/input. It is coming together better/faster than expected. Can't wait for the first chip to fly...

The adventure continues ...
I purchased a Husky 60 Gallon 3HP/230V 1PH compressor off Craig's List this week to replace my wheezing old Craftsman. It sounded fine when it was running at the guys house. When I got it home I thought I could hear a connecting rod just starting to clink.

I checked the oil and it was black as coal and really thick. I drained what little oil I could. When I saw how bad it looked, I knew it need some TLC. I blew down tank then removed the compressor. I put my finger over the output and built pressure by turning the flywheel by hand. It held the pressure for as long I as I could keep a seal with my finger, I'm guessing 45-90 seconds. I've checked prices for parts and it will be $150-$190 to rebuild. A brand new pump is $278.

I plan to clean up the crankcase the best I can and see how she sounds afterwards. If it is still clinking, I'll order the parts.

Evan R.
 
As Paul said, use proper torque. That means using a torque wrench.
Cal

And it means looking up the correct torque for the size and material of that bolt, and just as important, whether it's lubricated or not.
Dry threads require a lower torque than lubricated ones.


M
 
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