Looking for boring head and boring bars for PM-25MV mill

mikey: Thanks for your input.

The Criterion DBL-202B head sells for $389 on MSC. I'll have to buy the shank separately, part number: R8-087520 for another $86? That's about $475. Other places might have slightly better prices. I'll have to decide if it's worth buying new or used. I'm a little leery buying used since I can't tell if it's abused, but I agree with you on buying quality. I cried once when I bought my Kurt vice, but have no regrets now.

I'll have to start scanning the auction sites for a good one at a good price.

Thanks for confirming my concerns on carbide vs HSS. That's what I remember reading awhile ago. I have no problem sharpening HSS tooling. I do this for my lathe bits. HSS boring bars, it is!
 
Like your Kurt vise, I consider a boring head a foundational tool. As such, it has to work well, simply and reliably. Criterion DBL heads are actually quite basic with only a few moving parts but they are reliable workhorses that can last a hobby guy for a lifetime if not abused. Just to be clear, there are many other heads that are far better than a basic Criterion head - Wohlhaupter, Kaiser, Narex and others - but for most boring jobs, a DBL head will work just fine.

Buying a used head is economically the smartest route but you are right; buying used carries some risk. You will find that a head that has been abused or crashed will look it. If it looks like some bozo ran it into a work piece then reject it. Unscrupulous sellers will often not show the side of the head with the screws because they are invariably missing. If you can't see the screws, move on.

The body is simply black oxide coated that will fade with time and use. The tool holder part is satin chromed and stands up to wear a bit better. If it has no battle scars, the gib is totally intact and all the screws are there then take a good look. If it was used by a good operator, the head will have many years of use left in it and you can tell these heads because they will look like someone took good care of it.

All the DBL heads had removable shanks, with a 7/8-20 internal thread in back of the head. Adapters are available for almost every conceivable application, which is one reason why this head is in widespread use. If you see a good DBL head, know that you can remove the existing shank and adapt it to your machine.

In my opinion, a head that has been used is worth about 50% of its original value. Many sellers on ebay think otherwise and I have seen heads that have been beat to death selling for nearly $300. On the other hand, there are heads that are in fine shape that sell near the $120-140 range; those are what you're looking for. Be patient and it will come. What you're looking for is the description that says in "good condition". If you buy it and there is something wrong with it, ebay will back you when you ask to return it for a full refund so there is little risk. On the other hand, if you are well-heeled and wish for a new head, wait for a set to come up on ebay that has the head and a set of boring bars in a plastic case. They will usually run less than MSC charges for the head alone.

Some examples might help.

  • Here is one in decent shape but you cannot see the screws. I would ask the seller to show them and the gib to me in pics. If they are all there and the gib is intact then I would make an offer. This head looks nearly new and I would offer $150 for it. He may counteroffer a bit higher but it won't be for the current asking price.
  • This is a DBL-202 A model in very nice condition. It is clearly used but has been well cared for. No scars, the gib is intact and the gib screws are there and equal in height so the bearings are probably in there. It is listed as used so it must be fully functional or you can return it. I would have no problem offering $110 for this head and it would probably serve me for the rest of my hobby career.
As for bars, buy a decent set. Boring bars require very little sharpening. Borite bars only need an occasional touch up on the end and a light pass on the flat top. I use an extra-fine diamond stone for this.

If you want to economize on bars, buy a solid carbide Micro 100 bar with a positive lead when you find one for a good price. You will be pleasantly surprised at how well these bars cut and one with a 1.5" - 2" long shank will bore most holes in a hobby shop. Like Borite bars, these sharpen easily with a diamond stone and will last a lifetime if you don't crash it.

Good luck. If you need help with this, PM me.
 
Look for used, I found a nice Criterion 1-1/2" boring head on ebay for under $100.

The head threads onto a shank which offers some flexibility. I got it originally for my Sherline mill, but by changing the shank to an MT2 I can also use it on my Clausing mill.
 
Thanks for the links on ebay. Most the sellers on ebay seem to be reluctant to show the screw side of the head. Maybe, for a reason. I'm asking the seller for more pics.

Interestingly, MSC sells the same head on ebay as their website for $301 with free shipping. That's a better deal than from their website. Tempting.

As for the boring bars, I'm assuming you are referencing this set on LMS: PN 2682

I recently sold my Sherline for the PM because of capacity limitations. I'm surprised the Sherline could comfortably swing the big a boring head.

This is expensive hobby for sure. I recent bought: Kurt vice, Mity 1" mic, Mity 4 piece mic set (should have started here instead of the individual one--didn't think I'd need more than 1"!), Mity 4 piece telescoping gage set, Mity depth gage set, fly cutter, many endmills plus more that I'd rather not mention! Nobody tell my wife!!!
 
I recently sold my Sherline for the PM because of capacity limitations. I'm surprised the Sherline could comfortably swing the big a boring head.

This is expensive hobby for sure. I recent bought: Kurt vice, Mity 1" mic, Mity 4 piece mic set (should have started here instead of the individual one--didn't think I'd need more than 1"!), Mity 4 piece telescoping gage set, Mity depth gage set, fly cutter, many endmills plus more that I'd rather not mention! Nobody tell my wife!!!

It can be, particularly buying name brand and new stuff. That is what makes this site so nice, it is easy to get advice on where it is ok to cut a few corners buying cheap, which items are safe-ish to buy used, and where it pays to suck it up and buy a new name brand tool.

Also for suggestions of appropriate tooling for a particular machine. Mikey recommended the 1-1/2" Criterion, I also would have thought it too big and probably would have bought the Sherline boring head without his input. I think I paid the same or less for the Criterion used as I would have for new Sherline boring head.
 
If the head is in really nice shape but missing the ball bearings and set screws, the price needs to reflect that. The balls can be simply replaced and the set screws are standard high quality cup point set screws so not a disaster. The gib MUST be intact, though. Yes, pics are in order before you make an offer.

MSC usually prices things lower on ebay but they kill you for shipping. I no longer buy from them because of that.

Yes, the LMS set you linked to are the ones I meant. Cheap for what they are. Borite uses M42 cobalt, or 8%, but I doubt you'll notice the difference at less than half the cost. Cobalt bars last a long time, cut clean at the speeds we use and deflect less than carbide so holding tolerances is easier. Watch for a nice Borite set on ebay, even if you get the LMS set. Criterion, Bokum and others also make cobalt bars.

As Aaron just posted, the Criterion S1-1/2 head is a perfect fit for the Sherline mill and works a treat on larger machines when you need a small hole. The advantage to the S-type heads is that they have a lot of surface area in the dovetails given their small size so they tend to be very stable in use. I have pushed that head and my Sherline mill to their limits and have been very pleased with the performance. I just gave my Sherline boring head to a friend. It isn't a POS but it ain't a Criterion, either.

I agree that this is an expensive hobby but if you know what you want and can wait for it on ebay then things are not so bad. Mitutoyo is great for digital mics and calipers. Etalon/Compac/Tesa/Interapid make the best indicators for the money. Etalon makes the best analog mics. Mitutoyo makes the best digital height gauges, and so on. Every tool we need has a "best" version and if you wait for it, you will find it on ebay at near or possibly lower cost vs their Chinese counterparts. The trick is to know what you want and look persistently. I waited for over 10 years for a set of Tesa thread mics to come up at a realistic price and I got a mint set of 0-1 and 1-2 for a relative song. It pays to buy the best but try not to pay full price for it.

Keep us posted on how things go.
 
I wanted a boring head + R8 collet adapter and I bought the Shars 2” higher quality version (the silver one) as well as a set of Shars 1/2” brazed carbide boring bars. They look pretty nice, but I haven’t have a chance to use them yet.

I have bought a huge amount of Shars tools in the last three months. Generally speaking, I would say that they are “barely good enough”, or perhaps I should say “hopefully good enough”.

I am sure that the much higher quality brands of tools and machines are worth the extra expense, but I just cannot bring myself to spend so much extra money for a tool or machine that performs near the same as one which sells at a fraction of the price.
 
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I can understand your perspective, Erik. Especially when starting out, tooling expenses can get huge and you have to draw a line somewhere, right? However, allow me to offer an optional perspective.

There are tools that I consider to be foundational tools, tools that impact on accuracy. These tools include a good machine vise, boring head and bars, collet chuck/collets/collet nut for the mill and jawed lathe chucks. This is where quality pays off and is where going cheap will affect accuracy.

This doesn't mean paying retail. Ebay allows us to afford the finest tools for a fraction of their retail value. Many of my best tools were cheaper than their new Chinese equivalents. My personal practice is to know what I want, wait for it to turn up on ebay and get that instead of opting for a cheaper alternative.
 
Aside from buying a used Criterion on ebay, which would also be my first choice over a Chinese import, and is how I got my DBL-202, look for Yuasa on ebay. Yuasa also copied the Criterion DBL boring heads but Yuasa makes quality tools. Many people don't think to search for Yuasa boring heads & they don't pop up that often but if you have the patience & keep your eyes open you may find one for a really good deal.

I scored a Yuasa 3" boring head for really cheap, made in Japan. Unfortunately I never use it as I don't have a need for a 3" head but I have it if I ever need it. Was one of those throw a low bid & forget about it deals. I won the auction with no other bidders.

The Criterion DBL-202B head sells for $389 on MSC.
Interestingly, MSC sells the same head on ebay as their website for $301 with free shipping. That's a better deal than from their website. Tempting.

If you log into to your account on MSC the price should be cheaper. Yeah it sucks that their pricing works that way but they are not the only ones that do that. Plus on their website you can apply codes for sales when they have them for additional discount if the certain item allows for further discount (depends on their profit margin for certains). And shipping is free for orders over $49. However I haven't figured out if it's the same for all low volume buyers' accounts so YMMV.
 
Does anyone know the deal with the model numbers for these heads?

I see models DBL-202B and CB-202B. Are they the same? Did CB-202B replace DBL-202B? I get the feeling that the CB-202B model is the newer version of the DBL-202B, but I can't tell for sure.
 
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