5C Collet on Lathe - centered but part at an angle to the spindle

dansawyer

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The lathe is a Colchester with a quick change collet holder. The collet holder is centered and round - runout measures about 5 tenths. When I place a 6 nch piece of 1 inch drill rod in a 5C collet it measures less then 1 thou out of round at the collet. However 3 inchs from the collet it measures about 5 thou out. The rod measures round to less than a thou in a set of gauge blocks on a marble flat plate. I have tried repeatedly to reset the rod in the collet.
My conclusion is the collet is not setting square in the collet holder, the collet holder is not setting square in the lathe spindle, or the collet itself is out of alignment. Are these the right places to look? How can I further figure out where the issue is?
 
Are you talking about the 4.5mt adapter on the Clausing ?
 
Vee blocks? Suspended at two points? Sounds like the rod may not be straight. Other than that, the part may need a pointed or a cup center.
 
Rather than using a piece of steel rod I would use a dowel pin. They are hardened and of known diameters. I have a collection of 4140 steel ones 1/4" 1/2" 3/4" and 1" specifically for checking runout on machines. Most are in the 4" to 6" long range. They're from McMaster and all except the 1" one cost less than $10.00 each
 
Either RJ and/or Dave Best might chime in. One or both of them did a nice write up on the clamping differences between ER and 5C collets. In a nutshell, 5C's grip just at the "mouth" of the opening, ER's grip over the entire inside length of the collet. 5C's can cock the material in the collet.

It sounds like with <0.001" runout at the mouth of the 5C and 0.005" at 3" from the mouth. I'm curious if you can tap the high spot at 3" out with a brass hammer if the number changes. To test your 5C collet being bent or machined poorly, can you try the same set up with another collet? Maybe a 3/4" with a dowel pin or known straight length of drill rod?

Naturally, if things look good with the 3/4" collet, I'd suspect that either your 1" collet or 1" drill rod is the problem.

Bruce
 
Is the head stock parallel to the lathe bed? In other words can the lathe turn straight with out a taper in a 3 jaw chuck. That's the first place to check. Then look for burs or foreign material in the spindle nose,collet adapter,or collet. Lastly try changing to a different collet and a ground rod.
 
I take it that you are measuring runout rather than spindle to ways misalignment. You are correct as to the possible sources. Any or all three could be the cause. Parsing them out is where the difficulty arises. I think the suggestion to use dowel pins id a good one. They will have a tighter tolerance than drill rod. Be aware though that even dowel pins do not have a specification regarding straightness (cylindricity). I personally like wrist pins from internal combustion engines. They are generally very straight and have good roundness and diameter specs. I have a collection ranging from 7/16" to 1-1/8".

You can determine if straightness of your test pin is at play by marking the spindle on its side and measuring the runout. Mark the pin on its side at the point of maximum or minimum runout. Then rotate the pin 180º, being careful not to allow other components to rotate and remeasure runout. If the runout moves with the pin, the pin is out of round. If it stays with the spindle, another component is at fault. You can use this procedure to check the collet and the collet chuck as well. Be aware that runout will stack up and it is entirely conceivable that it can be in a way that the various runouts can partially or entirely cancel.

A 5C collet, properly used will grasp a pin along the entirety of its ground length. As the collet is tightened. the flexing portion will bend in an S shape so that the inner and outer surface surfaces are coaxial. The amount of force required increases greatly as the difference between the diameter of the pin and the the design diameter of the collet increases. At some point, it will be too great for a collet closer to work. One reason for the smaller grip range of 5C collets. Any pin which is smaller in diameter than the collet diameter will only grasp on three lines spaced 120º apart.

ER collets and other double angle collets require less force to deform to fit, hence the larger grip range. They also have four, six, or eight fingers as opposed to the three of a 5C collet. The double angle feature does add another surface which can deviate from the ideal and the nut threads of an
ER collet chuck adds one more. Sorting it all out can be time consuming and oftentimes frustrating.I believe in the philosophy that in the practice of machining, there is no such thing as a perfect part. Everything made will have some variation. It may be too small to measure but it is there. When these variances stack ip, we can begin to see them. If there is an angular deviation in grinfing the surface of a collet, it may only measure a half thou close to the face of the collet but it may be ten times that 5" out.
 
Thank you all for providing valuable additional information.
I will now try to evaluate the root cause of the error.
First, I will try another collett.
It the problem is resolved then it it the collett.
If the results are the same then I will evaluate the concentricity of the spindle and adaptor tapors.
I will also look into changing to an ER mechanism. The spindle is reported to be an odd variant of an MT taper, specifically between MT4 and MT5.
Thank you all, Dan
 
I haven't seen many collets that grip perfectly perpendicular to the axis every time. I would tap in the 0.005" and recheck next to the collet. I've been doing that for a long time. If my part needs to be dead straight I always check in multiple spots before turning.
 
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