700 series carriage lock

rambin

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hey my carriage lock never did seem to lock super tight. then today I noticed it it was just turning...thought I had stripped all the threads out of it... but under better inspection I'm noticing it's only engaging by maybe 2 threads... thinking this isn't the original bolt? can someone verify the length of their bolt? compared to what I have... in the pic 20191202_124004.jpg 20191202_124004.jpg
 

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Nogoingback

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Mine is also 2" long. (Model 200)
 

rambin

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hmmm now im really confused. wonder why it wouldn't come right thru the little cast piece so it would have full thread engagement? notice there is about 1/4" on the tip of the bolt that is unthreaded... that part does not stand proud of the cast piece so very few threads are in use... any ideas?
 

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Not sure. Mine has full thread engagement. I would just get or make a longer bolt.
Maybe the Wards lathes are different in some way. They were designed early, and Logan did make changes in the
early days to various models.
 

rambin

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is there somewhere you can buy square head bolts? I don't have the tooling or the know how to make such a beast. its a 3/8 18 thread I believe.... hate having to put a hex head bolt in place of where a square should be....
 

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The screw looks like what I would expect the original carriage lock screw to look like after someone had whittled on it. Assuming that the thread is 3/8"-16, it appears to be about 1/16" short and missing the first four threads. Go to Ace or similar and in their nut and bolt assortments area, find and buy a 3/8"-16 x 2 Socket Head Cap Screw for a temporary fix. Then start looking for a replacement original square-head screw. Logan probably carries it, although the shipping may cost more than the screw.

But I cannot think of any good reason for the missing threads. It would just make the screw more expensive.
 

rambin

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I probably have have 3/8 16 hex in stock but it will be zinced of course... and look like hell... logan will probably have it in stock but I don't really feel like getting raped at the moment... never mind the shipping.. does anyone still sell square head bolts? not sure why or if someone whittled the end of that bolt down.. if it was done on the lathe they polished her good.. looks original
 

Latinrascalrg1

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So is the bolt not long enough overall or is it just that the threadless end portion is bottoming out so that only 2 threads are able to engage?
 

wa5cab

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The tapped hole that it goes into is a through-hole, and if the Logan lathe that it fits is similar to my Atlas (and it probably is), the only things below it that a long enough bolt could hit are the lead screw and the bench or oil pan.

The two things that would make using a hex head bolt in that position are that the spot face is probably too small to clear the points of the hex. And it would be another wrench to have to keep handy on the carriage.

A place like Ace "might" have square head bolts in the proper thread. But there are two types - one with a washer face and one with a smaller square intended for use as a set screw. Unfortunately, the latter type is more common, and won't work.
 
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Nogoingback

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I probably have have 3/8 16 hex in stock but it will be zinced of course... and look like hell... logan will probably have it in stock but I don't really feel like getting raped at the moment... never mind the shipping.. does anyone still sell square head bolts? not sure why or if someone whittled the end of that bolt down.. if it was done on the lathe they polished her good.. looks original

wa5cab has it right: just buy a socket head cap screw and get your lathe up and running. It may not look original, but
it doesn't look original with a QCTP on it either. Then you can take your time if you really want an original looking part.
Functionally, it won't know the difference.
 

rambin

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I threw a longer hex head bolt in there it works fine... looks like **** and my little square drive wrench don't fit it ;p I will look next time im at ace but I have my doubts...although they are the best bolt bin in my area I do have to go to the next town over to hit the ace... I tried a quick online search but didn't really come up with a store that sells them... im sure if I spent more time on google there has to be one...
 

rambin

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So is the bolt not long enough overall or is it just that the threadless end portion is bottoming out so that only 2 threads are able to engage?
even if it was threaded to the end it would be a touch short. mind ya it would work but theres no reason to not have a few threads protruding the bottom of hte flat cast piece theres nothing under it which would get hurt..
 

Nogoingback

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You could make this an opportunity to upgrade and add a Kipp handle. No wrench required.

IMG_0913.jpg
 

mwestcott

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Saw that handle and got inspired to make one for my Logan - either I'd knock the wrench off the bolt if I left it there, or I would take it off and couldn't find it. Not as nice as the Kipp handle, but it works well so far. I made it to kinda match the one I did for the QCTP. My wife 3-d printed the knob for that one. IMG_3456.jpg
 

mwestcott

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The carriage lock bolt that came with my lathe appears to be homemade, with the square head hand filed and a washer added. It is about the same length as yours, and only feels like it has engaged three or four turns into the nut, so that bare section on yours may be the issue. IMG_3461.jpg
 

Nogoingback

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Saw that handle and got inspired to make one for my Logan - either I'd knock the wrench off the bolt if I left it there, or I would take it off and couldn't find it. Not as nice as the Kipp handle, but it works well so far. I made it to kinda match the one I did for the QCTP. My wife 3-d printed the knob for that one.
View attachment 307364
It looks as though both your handles are nicely made. The only advantage of the Kipp handle is that
it can be clocked around if needed.
 

rambin

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The carriage lock bolt that came with my lathe appears to be homemade, with the square head hand filed and a washer added. It is about the same length as yours, and only feels like it has engaged three or four turns into the nut, so that bare section on yours may be the issue. View attachment 307379
yes if mine was threaded to the bottom it would definatly work... another 1/4 " or so would be even better.. not finding much for replacement bolts so far. square headed bolts are out there but to find them with the built in washer.. maybe theres a proper name for them that I don't know..... finding bolts localy is a joke I don't even bother looking anymore.
 

rambin

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Saw that handle and got inspired to make one for my Logan - either I'd knock the wrench off the bolt if I left it there, or I would take it off and couldn't find it. Not as nice as the Kipp handle, but it works well so far. I made it to kinda match the one I did for the QCTP. My wife 3-d printed the knob for that one. View attachment 307364
do you get enough force on the bolt with 1 short pull of the handle to lock your carriage tight? really like that handle on your qctp finding the wrench all the time is gettin old..
 

mwestcott

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It seems to work well. When the wrench was on there, it would be about parallel with the ways when loose, and a bit less than 90 degrees when tight - and the new handle is about the same. It's loose in the photo above, and the carriage is tight in this one: IMG_3457.jpg


If it loosens up over time I figure I can locate some thin washers to adjust things if needed. I had the same issue with the qctp wrench, and that handle was the first project I did after installing it. I had to order a weird metric tap to fit the qctp post that I'll probably never use again, but it was well worth it.
 

rambin

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hmm might have to do something like that ball handle... just did it on the qctp.. came out pretty good.... but back to the saddle lock... the longer bolt worked for a bit but seemed I was always having to tighten it a bit tighter... rest of the threads gave out in the little cast iron locking piece.. not sure what im gonna do with that.. its not just a matter of drilling it bigger and threading a bushing as the hole goes into that piece on a compound angle.. for some reason..
 

wa5cab

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The carriage lock itself us usually a pretty simple piece to duplicate. All of the ones that I have actually seen were basically a short piece of steel flat bar with the center 70 percent or so milled about 1/16" thinner than the ends, And with a hole drilled and tapped in the center. If you can't buy a replacement but have access to a mill or milling attachment, the hardest part of the job will be figuring out what to do with the left-over material. If you are going to make it yourself, and are going to use a milling attachment, cut two pieces and drill and tap one of them to use as a temporary lock shoe while you are milling out the other one.
 

rambin

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I don't have a mill. it could probably be made out of a piece of flat barbut I don't really understand why the tapped hole is put in on an angle? im thinking a piece of flat steel would work even though it doesn't have the valleys in the center.. think that's more art then anything
 

RJSakowski

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I think that the valley is there so the .lock isn't wearing the edge of the ways. It is easy enough to add that relief with a file though. As the the screw, if it is stripping out now, I wouldn't be comfortable with just a threading to the end. You would only gain two extra threads at the most.

In my mind, form follows function. The lathe is meant to be used. If you are concerned about appearance or not being able to use the OEM wrench, making a new screw shouldn't be that difficult, even without a mill. I would turn the head of the bolt to a diameter equal to the distance across the points of the square head (1.414 x the distance across the flats). Then I would file the flats. Clickspring has some great videos on working with a file. If your bull gear has index holes on the side, you can use the lathe to scribe guide lines 90º apart on the cylindrical head.

Fastenal sells square head set screws.
Set Screw.JPG
 

rambin

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I think that the valley is there so the .lock isn't wearing the edge of the ways. It is easy enough to add that relief with a file though. As the the screw, if it is stripping out now, I wouldn't be comfortable with just a threading to the end. You would only gain two extra threads at the most.

In my mind, form follows function. The lathe is meant to be used. If you are concerned about appearance or not being able to use the OEM wrench, making a new screw shouldn't be that difficult, even without a mill. I would turn the head of the bolt to a diameter equal to the distance across the points of the square head (1.414 x the distance across the flats). Then I would file the flats. Clickspring has some great videos on working with a file. If your bull gear has index holes on the side, you can use the lathe to scribe guide lines 90º apart on the cylindrical head.

Fastenal sells square head set screws.
View attachment 308952
that would probably work...doesn't have the shoulder like the original but a washer would suffice... funny that Fastenal online is willing to sell but on the door of the business locally they have a sign that reads contractors only no private sales.... as far as making the plate part of it your right it could be done with a file or even a grinder... drilling the hole would be easy enough but too duplicate the odd angle back into the hole would be a bit tricky... who knows maybe thats why it failed. puling the threads on an angle would prbly load them in one area...?
 

Nogoingback

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hmm might have to do something like that ball handle... just did it on the qctp.. came out pretty good.... but back to the saddle lock... the longer bolt worked for a bit but seemed I was always having to tighten it a bit tighter... rest of the threads gave out in the little cast iron locking piece.. not sure what im gonna do with that.. its not just a matter of drilling it bigger and threading a bushing as the hole goes into that piece on a compound angle.. for some reason..

Have you called Logan to see if they have one?
 

rambin

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the website shows the nut portion for 21.00 the bolt is out of stock.... not sure how up too date that site is tho...seems it hasn't changed in quite awhile... at 21.00 for a part that size I'll keep it as a last resort...
 

Latinrascalrg1

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For $21 I could buy enough material to either make all the mistakes I needed to make before I present a completed part or to Learn There is Much more LEARNING NEEDED before trying again! Either way a Lesson Well WORTH $21 and the effort to try in my book.
 

rambin

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well i set the drill press table to about 5 degrees and drilled the hole out to just under 9/16... then took a 3/8 coupler nut and turned it down to about the same size left a 1/8 shoulder on it and cut the rest off... then brazed it into the cast iron piece. not pretty but I have threads again... it does lock the carriage down some but not really super tight maybe I gotta use a longer wrench.. then again theres not a hell of a lot of bearing on that cast irion piece to the bottom of the ways...if you look at my first post you will see its only those 2 square patches that grab the ways...
 
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