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Cheap Chinese face mill?

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mksj

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#31
Let’s come back to this, is there a way to adjust one tooth up a thou or so without grinding the insert?
Not really, the inserts also have a coating and are formed with specific tolerances. If you are looking for inserts I would recommend Iscar, Kennametal, Sandvik, Korloy, etc. Unfortunately most of the inserts from China are probably fake, I usually buy from US or EU vendors and only from usually tool surplus suppliers that do not sell everything else that is also made in China. Just too much junk, and the probably why you are having the problems you are seeing. Bad inserts, will cut, but not very well and do not last. Assuming these are APKT/APGT/APMT 1604 then consider the following:
For Steel ISCAR APKT 1604PDR-76 IC928 https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-pcs-ISCAR-APKT-1604PDR-76-IC928/322992042447
For Aluminum Korloy APKT1604PDFR-MA H01 https://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-APKT1604PDFR-MA-H01-Carbide-Milling-Inserts-For-Aluminum/162826768705
They are also sold by Glacern under the FM90 link below.

Sometimes one is better off getting something like a Shar's or better yet Glacern cutting head with inserts. At the end of the day, you get much better tolerances and cutting performance for not to much more spend. The other factor that scares me big time is poor hardware and soft screws. One of those goes with an insert, it could cause some serious damage. I also have had better luck buying new old stock or lightly used cutter heads from the same brands mentioned above, I can easily shave a thousandth cleanly off of an aluminum block with a mirror finish. One cutter head that is setup for aluminum has 4 cutting surfaces per insert, so you get a lot of mileage out of them, another has 8 cutting surfaces setup for steel. Also have an APKT 2" head with 6 inserts. When machining aluminum you want uncoated polished carbide, usually a cutter with a forward cant like the FM45.

http://www.shars.com/products/index...lling/2-1-2-45-degree-face-mill-seht-insert-1
http://www.shars.com/products/index...e-milling/3-45-degree-face-mill-seht-insert-1
https://www.glacern.com/fm45
https://www.glacern.com/fm90
 

T Bredehoft

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#32
How about shimming the others down? I had to set some (we called them ) catheads, 10 inches long and 14 in diameter with a number of inserts on the face, in order to get them all the same we routinely put up to .005 shims under the low ones. These were for the first rough cut on the OD face of full sized Ford, Chevy and Chrysler disc brakes. The spindles these were mounted on had roller bearings 42" diameter.
 

Hukshawn

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#33
Thanks for the info, guys. I think I may go and talk to the guys at my local industrial supplier and see what I can get.
 

Technical Ted

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#34

Hukshawn

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#35
I have a bunch of accusize tools. Their quality is about the same. Some good, some crusty. They’re local to me, actually. About 45 mins away.
 

4GSR

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#36
Let’s come back to this, is there a way to adjust one tooth up a thou or so without grinding the insert?
Going up, no. Now you could place a piece of shim stock behind the insert to get it up where you want it. If you want to machine the pocket a little, I would set up in a rotary table, one with compound tilt, so you can match up the angles as close as you can get it. Do so by using a DTI and indicate the insert pocket in both directions. Once done use a sharp endmill and kiss the side of the pocket, just enough that it cleans up. Apply a little cutting oil to the surface. Your only talking about taking a thousandth or so. Before indexing, set up a height gage with a DTI and touch off on the pocket at some reference point that you would use for each pocket in each location. Once done. Index to the next pocket using the height gage to get the pocket into exact placement. Without moving in X on your mill table take a cut across the back of the pocket in Y. If it cuts, fine, if not, mark it and come back to it later. Go to the next pocket and repeat. If one of the pockets did not cleanup, go back to that pocket and adjust X till it cuts. Then go to all of the other pockets. Once done, lets hope the screws will still hold the insert in the pocket without moving. If too much material is removed the insert screw will not hold the insert in place properly. You only get one chance at doing this. It either works or it doesn't work.

Oops, came into this conversation way too late. Sorry.
 

mattthemuppet2

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#37
I would suggest trying some ground inserts for aluminium (usually have H01 in the designation) like these:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-APKT...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

or even some APGT inserts
https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-10Pcs-...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

ground inserts usually have closer tolerances, which may reduce the tip height variation you're seeing, but more importantly reduce the cutting force. Lower cutting force = more shearing and less bludgeoning of the material which usually gives a better finish. No personal experience with face mills, but the difference between CCMT (molded, like your APKT/ APMT) and CCGT (ground) is like night and day. The ground inserts are a little less robust, but in a home shop they'll still last forever.

However, here's what I'll probably get when I save up the $
https://www.ebay.com/itm/KM12-50-22...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

and
https://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-SEHT...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649

the 45deg face mills are supposed to give a much better finish at the cost of not being able to face up to a shoulder. This all from reading however.
 

4GSR

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#38
I have a old school 45 deg lead angle face mill that uses SEK_ style insert that is used with a clamp. Does leave a nice finish!
 

xman_charl

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#39
worked Korean factory, milling x-ray grids

Laugan mill, the cutter, had carbide inserts, think about 12 inserts

inserts could be adjusted within a thou

all carbide inserts where ground at another place

put dial indicator on table, do each cutter

2 set screws for each insert

afters cutting, plates went to x-ray for flatness, cracks, flaws

could not use something like a surface grinder, as plate was
sandwitched, with lead, aluminum, strips

plates where soaked in epoxy, baked, and shipped

base price was about $800 each

when used at hospitals for awhile, plate will develope cracks, do
its replaced

Charl
 

petertha

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#40
I have a bunch of accusize tools. Their quality is about the same. Some good, some crusty. .
Is the 'problem' insert milling head an Accusize item, or you sourced from a different vendor? (just wondering because Accusize sells on ebay too).
 

Hukshawn

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#41
Is the 'problem' insert milling head an Accusize item, or you sourced from a different vendor? (just wondering because Accusize sells on ebay too).
No, my face mill was a $20 facemill from a no name chinese eBay seller, not accusize. However, it's turning out that accusize isnt too far above those cheap Chinese items. Accusize is still cheap Chinese stuff. The story I was told is that it's just a guy that's importing chinese tools, branding it, and selling them from his Richmond Hill, Toronto, warehouse.

I solved all these issues by purchasing a brand name, American made, facemill for $250 from a local industrial supplier. It should come in any day now.
 

Hukshawn

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#42
It finally came in.
Here's what I got
https://kar.ca/fma02-050-a0-75-se12-16.html
2 inch 3 flute.
With SEET12T3DM inserts.


I was actually surprised it was still chinese. I thought I was buying American or Japanese or something... But I may have gotten what I asked for. I said high quality chinese or low quality American. So, if this mill was $250, I'd hate to see what a high quality American equivalent is. Eep. Lol.
 

Hukshawn

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#43
Would there be info somewhere about this insert ie, recommended DOC's etc. Or is it a generalization on the size, type, etc of the insert with each metal? I can't find anything in the catalogue.
 

Dan_S

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#44
I was actually surprised it was still chinese. I thought I was buying American or Japanese or something... But I may have gotten what I asked for. I said high quality chinese or low quality American. So, if this mill was $250, I'd hate to see what a high quality American equivalent is. Eep. Lol.
It doesn't really mater who makes it, imo what differentiates the good the bad and the OK, is how much quality control it undergoes, and how skilled the people doing it are. Some places might check one part in a 1, some 1 in a 100 , others 1 in 10 etc etc.
 

Dan_S

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#45
Would there be info somewhere about this insert ie, recommended DOC's etc. Or is it a generalization on the size, type, etc of the insert with each metal? I can't find anything in the catalogue.
Always go by what's on the back of the pack of inserts.
 

Hukshawn

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#46
Always go by what's on the back of the pack of inserts.
Ah. I did not look there.
I have a few packs of cheap Chinese inserts and there isn't much of anything for discernible information on the back.
Unless the row of letters in funny symbols is said information?
 

Dan_S

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#47

Hukshawn

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#49
I feel there may be some useful information under very convenient torn section....
 

Dan_S

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#50
Ok,

YBPM251 = the manufactures internal grading id

SEET 12T3 & SEET 42.5 are the standard ISO and ANSI sizing and tolerance standards. this is a good resource for that info http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-insert-d.htm

DM is the manufactures chip breaker designation, but this one is kind of useless as they don't tell you anything about it like rake or land etc.

P15-P40 means it will work in Steel
M10-M30 means it works in stainless steel

this will give you a rough idea about what the numbers mean
http://carbide.ultra-met.com/Asset/ANSIISO-Specifications.pdf.


the P section is the speeds and feeds for steel

Vc = is the surface speed in meters per minute so you will need to do the math to convert it to sfpm.
Fz = is the chipload but again in metric so you will need to do the math to convert it to ipt.

the M section that is ripped off is the speeds and feeds for stainless stee,l so you should probably contact the retailer and tell them to send you that information.
 

Hukshawn

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#51
I have no stainless, so maybe I will cross that bridge when I come to it.

The really hard part about understanding the feeds and speeds with inserts on my mill is that I don't have power feed yet. So I'm hand feeding. Impossible to know what my feed rate is. But I have a good feel of how the insert is handling the load and the sound.
 

Hukshawn

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#52
I plan on building a power feed, I just haven't gotten there yet.
How could I figure out a depth of cut range from all this info?
 

Dan_S

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#53
How could I figure out a depth of cut range from all this info?
Unfortunately, that's not something you can calculate, it should be a piece of information given to you by the manufacturer. For a knock-off brand insert like this it's more of a guess and check method.

Top brands will have all the information on the back of the pack as well as on their website, but you do pay a premium for it. For example these Iscar inserts were like 15 bucks a pop but I have access to a lot more information.
IMG_20180126_182151.jpg
 

Hukshawn

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#54
Hmm. I wouldn't called these cheaper inserts. $8 each.
I guess I just gotta mount it up and go for it and find out
 

Dan_S

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#55
Hmm. I wouldn't called these cheaper inserts. $8 each.
I guess I just gotta mount it up and go for it and find out
It's all relative, I know people who would tell you $15 an insert is cheap.
 

Hukshawn

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#56
Lol. Certainly not me! Especially for a hobby!
 

Hukshawn

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#57
oh... my... stars.... ! its wonderful... just wonderful.


i put it on my cheap chinese R8 arbor cause i forgot to get a good one when i orda ered the mill. but it doesnt matter. its just wonderful...

i had been making new vise jaws for English Hylo vise rebuild from some 4140, which was what spawned this whole face mill fiasco. i havent squared the second jaw yet, so, i threw it in the vise, took a few passes about 010-015 each time till it leveled out. there is play in a barring or shaft somewhere in the pulley head of my mill, when i have an interrupted cut, my mill is very noisy but usually quiets down once the cut is no longer interrupted. which is exactly what happened... infact, once all 3 teeth were engaged in the work the mill was actually quieter than running no load. seriously... if it werent for nice straw coloured chips flying all across my garage, i wouldnt have even known it was cutting! ohh man, i was so excited i was cranking that X handle laughing like a child.. hahaha.
once i was done with the cut, i ran the same test as i did on the cheap mill. after the last pass i lowered the quill just until the insert started rubbing the work, then hand cranked the drive to see how each insert contacts the work. with the old head, thats when i realized how far off each insert was. this mill, all three rub exactly the same amount. aaaaand thats when i chipped an insert cause my hand slipped and i nudged it in reverse, lol, and boop, off comes a little sliver of carbide. haha. good thing theres 3 more sides to each insert!

/happy boy!
 

Hukshawn

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#58
Here's a pic
IMG_20180126_232544.jpg

The tool marks look much more significant than they actually are. This is 4140, so I was running at 600 rpm and by the end I was feeding pretty quick to see how the chips looked and how the mill handled. Back right is where I started. Much slower fees and much finer finish. and its zoomed in pretty close
 

Clock work

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#59
Let’s come back to this, is there a way to adjust one tooth up a thou or so without grinding the insert?
You could shim the short ones.

I bought the highest rated face mill on Amazon and was getting extremely bad surface finishes due to what appeared to be significant variation in insert stick-out. I returned it rather than taking on another project. There's a good review of a ZCC face mill out there but I can't speak to it personally.
 

RobertHaas

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#60
This is 4140, so I was running at 600 rpm and by the end I was feeding pretty quick to see how the chips looked and how the mill handled. Back right is where I started. Much slower fees and much finer finish. and its zoomed in pretty close
I turn my carbide at a much higher rate then 600 RPM I did some rough math and using my machinist manuals I came up with running my 3" face mill with 5 inserts over 1200 RPM at a fairly aggressive feed rate taking .006" cut. the finish was extremely smooth nearly mirror like and the chips stayed a light cobalt blue. I was only using brush applied cutting oil and when I set up the flood the surface became trully mirror like and the chips are clear with no heat signature at all.

Going from HSS to carbide I am learning to increase the cutter speed to the point HSS would melt.
 
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