Classic 9" South Bend vs. Asian 9 x 20

[ShagDog]

You say the SB is stiffer, but it's bed is probably 2' longer then the Select. I would have guessed the opposite.

Actually, its not just the bed that is stiffer, the headstock and the apron are more sturdy as well.

 

[Aaron_W]

I have a 1941 SB9 4 1/2 foot bed and a Select Machine 8x16 Tiawan lathe from around 1979. I can't make a comparison with the newer Asian lathes. The weight of the little 8x16 is close to 300 lbs. The weight of the SB is around 100 lbs heavier. The SB is much stiffer and runs very smoothly. The back gear is great giving me low speeds like around 60rpm with high torque. Both lathes have 1 1/2-8 spindles.

The Select lathe has a backgear set-up that works great as well; however, lowest speed is around (edited) 90 (edited) rpm. It has a big plus of hardened bed ways.

I don't know whether I would be ok with no backgear set-up on the newer Asian lathes. Hard to say without ever using except the mini 7x's. Of course, the quick change gear boxes on both the lathes are great to have, and appear to add significantly to the price of the newer Asian lathes. Just my 2 cents.

It is a shame those Select lathes are no longer made. Like many of the early Taiwan made lathes (Jet 1024 is another) they seem a step above the current breed of 8-10" import lathes.

 

[Aaron_W]

I know what back gear is, but I had assumed the 9" china lathes had geared headstocks like my 8.5" Harbor Freight.

I'm not familiar with a HF 8.5x18" lathe. HF used to sell an 8x12" that has a bit of a following. Another one of the early imports that seem to be a cut above the current crop of imports.

If you have an 8.5x18" lathe I'm not sure that you would really be gaining much going to a 9x20. The 9x20s are only an 8.75" swing, so if you currently have an actual 8.5x18", then you are only gaining a 1/4" swing and 2" between centers? The design of the 9x20 is based on the Emco Compact 8. There were quite a number of clones of that lathe ranging from pure copies of the original 8.2x18" to the slightly enlarged and improved 9x20s (little larger, with a limited gear box), so potentially yours is one of these clones so more or less the same as the 9x20.

South Bend is a 9-1/8" swing on the older lathes and 9-1/4" on the later models. Logan is also 9-1/4". The smallest version of both weigh in at around 300lbs so a bit more mass than the 9x20.

The 9x20s have 6 speeds, from 130rpm at the low end to 2000rpm at the high end.

My 6" Craftsman (Atlas) has 16 speeds from 54 rpm to 3225 rpm.

South Bend made quite a few 9" lathes, some of the simpler (older) only had 6 speeds and a low top end (under 1000 rpm), but the SB 9A/B/C that is what I'm sure you are actually wanting to compare has 12 speeds from 50-1270rpm, so the 9x20 does have a significantly higher top speed, but fewer speeds. A Logan 9B also has 12 speeds, but a little higher top end with 55-1450rpm.

Now there are some tweaks out there to give the 9x20 a lower bottom end, but it is not one of the simpler mods, essentially adding a gear box to give it a back gear.

 

[skogkatt007]

The hf is actually about 14.5" between dead centers. And is a gear head lathe, whereas the 9 by whatevers aren't. I don't care right now about the short bed. Eberything is available used from time to time. Was just curious of the relative quality of these.

 

[Aaron_W]

I know you were asking specifically about the South Bend 9s, but it seems like you are mostly interested in more accurate than your HF 8x18" without going to a much larger lathe.

You might consider an older toolroom lathe, there are several small toolroom lathes from the 1920s-40s that were very high quality, small and because of their intended use as a specialists lathe, often not totally used up, so long as they didn't end up under a tarp in a field.

Because they are a little odd, and small, they are often fairly cheap when they do turn up. Most have threaded spindles with odd threads, or are collet based like a watch makers lathe which also turns some off of them, helping to keep the prices down. Mostly though people just don't know what these lathes are, lots of people just look for the names they recognize, South Bend, Logan, Atlas.

A plus to the change gear ones, is they often have a much wider range of thread options than you typically find on more common lathes.

Many were also offered as a simpler precision bench lathe, still very accurate, but without thread cutting so you do need to make sure you know what you are getting (these are pretty obvious by the lack of a lead screw).

The downside is parts are very limited, DIY or find a parts lathe to cannibalize. Many are in the 7-11" range with around 20" between centers. Replacement factory parts and tooling can be $$$ due to rarity.

Pre-HLV Hardinge made their Cataract lathes in 7, 9, 11 and 15" sizes, the 7 / 9" and 11 / 15" were the same lathes just with riser blocks to increase swing. I've seen these pop up occasionally in the $700-1000 range.

Cataract lathes

Rivett was a competitor of Hardinge, they made 8, 9 and 10" tool room lathes.

Rivett


Wade is another, they offered an 8-1/2x24" tool room lathe. I've only seen one of these for sale, but even with a quick change gear box they were only asking around $1000.

Wade


All of the above were US companies.


Schaublin is Swiss, very nice lathes, but being Swiss and known to more people usually not so cheap. I have seen a few nice ones turn up in the $2000-4000 range which with many of the current 9-10" lathes running $2000-3000 really isn't too bad.

Schaublin


There are others, but these are some that I know of and have seen at ;east a few of for sale over the years.


South Bend did offer a "Tool room" version of the 9A. This was basically just a standard 9A finished to a higher standard. No idea how you would tell one apart from a standard model 60+ years after it left the factory. Seems like a lot of sellers like to call any smallish vintage lathe a toolroom lathe, along with rare, and one of a kind. Still if you were able to find a legitimate tool room 9A it should be a cut above the regular models.



I stumbled onto a Rivett 608 (8-1/2x 21") from 1932, in great shape other than missing the motor set up. It is a project, but other than having to figure out a new motor drive, it came with a good amount of tooling, is in excellent shape and is a pleasure just to fondle while I try to get it running again. It is quirky with a 1-5/8"-14 threaded spindle, uses a weird proprietary (and very expensive) collet set, and is a change gear lathe but the price was right and it should be far more accurate than my skills.

 

[skogkatt007]

Yeah I know about those. I have an old circa. 1900 Pratt & Whitney split bed lathe that's all in pieces. I pitted the SB against the chinese as it's one of if not the most commonly found lathes out there.

I want your 608. I passed up a few. I must have 1 before I die. And a Schaublin 70.

 

[RickKr]

I know you were asking specifically about the South Bend 9s, but it seems like you are mostly interested in more accurate than your HF 8x18" without going to a much larger lathe.
...snip...

I stumbled onto a Rivett 608 (8-1/2x 21") from 1932, in great shape other than missing the motor set up. It is a project, but other than having to figure out a new motor drive, it came with a good amount of tooling, is in excellent shape and is a pleasure just to fondle while I try to get it running again. It is quirky with a 1-5/8"-14 threaded spindle, uses a weird proprietary (and very expensive) collet set, and is a change gear lathe but the price was right and it should be far more accurate than my skills.

Excellent post, Aaron_W. I agree wholeheartedly. I did something or exactly similar, but going from a very nice SB9A to a pre-WWII Rivett 1020. I posted some info about it in my introduction post.

Rick