Debate switching to solar power

[Weldingrod1]

I'm looking forward to the dcbel bi-directional charger! It will let me tap my 40 kwhr Leaf battery!

Worth looking into! They are already selling in a few markets...

Sent from my SM-G715A using Tapatalk

 

[Eddyde]

And while considering solar costs, it seems prudent to include costs of hazmat disposal when it is of no other value. It seems to be the asbestos of the future.

DanK

With all respect, I believe you are misinformed. Solar panels are mostly made of silicone, a relatively harmless element. The storage batteries are recyclable. Beyond that, the electronics and switch gear contain nothing out of the ordinary.

 

[RJSakowski]

With all respect, I believe you are misinformed. Solar panels are mostly made of silicone, a relatively harmless element. The storage batteries are recyclable. Beyond that, the electronics and switch gear contain nothing out of the ordinary.

Solar panels are considered by the EPA as hazardous waste. In the case of crystalline silicon solar panels, the vast majority,, this is primarily due to small amounts of lead and cadmium. Apparently the thin film solar sheets have some other obnoxious elements.

Reading through the EPA rules, it appeared to me that the primary purpose was to prevent wholesale dumping of spent solar panels into landfills but rather to disassemble them and harvest the various components and materials. Needless to say, California is one of the few states with regulations regarding solar panel disposal. Considering that they regulate sales of a milling machine because the brass used in some of the bushings contains lead, it isn't surprising.

IMO, the fear of trace lead is overdone. Lead in a form that can be ingested or inhaled is dangerous but lead salts are some of the least soluble of all the metals. 40% of all residences in Milwaukee, WI still have lead service pipes. But I live in a state whose first permanent European settlements were lead miners and region of the state where galena (lead sulfide) could be picked off the ground.The small amount of lead contained in a solar panel is negligible by comparison.

Anyway, as more solar panels begin to phase out, I expect that there will bee a whole industry based around salvage of them.

 

[BGHansen]

We have an array of twenty-two 380W ground-mount panels (~8.4 kW output) and 18 kW/hour of lithium-ion battery back up. Our system went in last June, so still "collecting data".

As advertised by our Pink Energy sales gal, our $175 average electric bill would drop to $40 or save us around $1600 a year. Our system was quoted at an end cost of ~$45K after the 30% Federal tax credit. When I asked what the normal payback was, she replied 5-8 years. Obviously, her math was bad. . . $45,000 / $1600 is more like 28 years. She replied that they were predicting that electric rates would quadruple in the next few years. When my wife and I married 32 years ago, our local utility charged $0.09 / kW hr, we're now up to $0.135 or a 50% increase in 32 years.

We would do it again even though the math doesn't work out. As mentioned by others, it gets us a little greener (at the cost of a lot of green), and gives us limited backup power in a power outage.

My in-laws had a solar heater much like the one mentioned by ChaseAleny above. Their house had a fuel-oil burning boiler, so water lines running throughout the house to radiators. My in-laws system ran glycol in the solar loops which ran through a radiator in the house to transfer heat from the glycol loop to the plain-water loop. They could route the glycol loop to the house system or pool filter. It extended their pool season by easily 3 months in mid-Michigan.

Bruce

 

[mickri]

What nobody talks about is the huge emissions that it takes to make solar panels and especially lithium ion batteries. The emissions to make the panels and batteries far exceeds the emissions saved over the life of the system. Solar electrical panels and lithium ion batteries are not recyclable. Well the aluminum frame is recyclable if you remove solar crystals. My local recycling company won't even accept whole solar panels. Costs more to separate out the aluminum than the aluminum is worth.

Also the business model where utilities are required to pay retail for the surplus energy put back into the grid is not sustainable. Electric rates in California are skyrocketing because of this. Also batteries only have an average life expectancy of 7 to 8 years. Charge them incorrectly and they will fail much sooner. If one fails they all have to be replaced. A battery bank is only as good as its worst battery. The electric vehicle market is just starting to feel the effects of the high cost of replacing the batteries. $10,000 plus and only dealers can do the replacement. Something to do with the computer systems. I have heard horror stories that it costs over $20,000 to replace the batteries in a Tesla.

Then you have the roof leak problems for roof mounted solar panels. It is not a question of "if" but "when" or how soon the roof will start to leak. My house had both solar electric and solar water heating panels on the roof. The electric panels were removed just prior to my purchase. The system was installed in 2003 by the then owner who was a solar installer. You would think that he did the best possible installation. I don't know when the roof start to leak. When I moved in in December 2021 every penetration was leaking. Everyone of them. The leaks must have been going on for awhile because when I removed the remaining solar hot water panels to reroof my house last fall every one of the lag bolts just pulled out of the roof. The wood around them was rotted.

I think that there is a place for solar energy. But it is not the cure all being touted. I lived off the grid for 9 years on my sailboat. The last 7 years solar provided all of my electricity with a battery backup. Unless it was cloudy for more than 2 or 3 days. Then I would have to shut down my freezer and not open it until the sun started to shine again. I got tired of this and stopped using the freezer. Think of the life style changes living without a freezer. That system is still working after 15 years of use. I have replaced the batteries twice.

Even with all of the problems I was going to install solar electric at my house. I had bought the panels from a solar company that had gone out of business. Was going to ground mount the panels in my backyard. My HOA would not allow ground mounted panels. Had to be on the roof. No way I was going to do that. Anybody want to buy 12 panels. $125 each. Or make me an offer.

 

[Janderso]

For us it was a no brainer.
Our energy bills were $350 to $550 going up every year.
Solar cut our monthly expense to $240 immediately. In about 7 years we have paid off the equipment.
Now our energy bill in the summer is about $15 and the winter due to natural gas is between $40 and $85.
Our true up this year was $75.
We have a pool and a spa. Big energy users.

 

[Janderso]

We have an array of twenty-two 380W ground-mount panels (~8.4 kW output) and 18 kW/hour of lithium-ion battery back up. Our system went in last June, so still "collecting data".

As advertised by our Pink Energy sales gal, our $175 average electric bill would drop to $40 or save us around $1600 a year. Our system was quoted at an end cost of ~$45K after the 30% Federal tax credit. When I asked what the normal payback was, she replied 5-8 years. Obviously, her math was bad. . . $45,000 / $1600 is more like 28 years. She replied that they were predicting that electric rates would quadruple in the next few years. When my wife and I married 32 years ago, our local utility charged $0.09 / kW hr, we're now up to $0.135 or a 50% increase in 32 years.

We would do it again even though the math doesn't work out. As mentioned by others, it gets us a little greener (at the cost of a lot of green), and gives us limited backup power in a power outage.

My in-laws had a solar heater much like the one mentioned by ChaseAleny above. Their house had a fuel-oil burning boiler, so water lines running throughout the house to radiators. My in-laws system ran glycol in the solar loops which ran through a radiator in the house to transfer heat from the glycol loop to the plain-water loop. They could route the glycol loop to the house system or pool filter. It extended their pool season by easily 3 months in mid-Michigan.

Bruce

View attachment 442672

Bruce,
I just checked our bill. We pay .372 per kwh.
I’ve heard PG&E is the highest in the country?

 

[BGHansen]

Bruce,
I just checked our bill. We pay .372 per kwh.
I’ve heard PG&E is the highest in the country?

OUCH!!! Our little co-op (Tri-County Electric) has reasonable rates at $0.135. When we send power back up the grid, they buy it at $0.055. The average price in Michigan is ~$0.19 per kWh.

According to this website (https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.php?t=epmt_5_6_a), the lowest rate is $0.0935 in Nebraska. Highest are Hawaii ($0.4496) and New Hampshire ($0.3172). CA is a "paltry" $0.2645 per kWh.

Your payback with almost TRIPLE my rates will improve your payback. You've got to wonder WHY you pay so much more than I do? Must be a "sin tax" for having a great climate.

Bruce

 

[mickri]

California has multiple rate plans to chose from. They all have a lower base rate that quickly rises depending on how much electricity you use and in all but one plan the time of day that the electricity is used. I believe that most meters in California are now reversing and time of use meters. I can go online and see how much electricity I used during any given hour during the day. This is updated every day.

Why does California have such high rates? Remember reading about all those wild fires and the huge settlements that were paid. Those settlements didn't come out of PG&E's pockets. PG&E like all utilities is guaranteed a small profit. They were allowed to raise the electrical rates to cover those losses. PG&E's customers paid those settlements through higher utility rates.

 

[Ischgl99]

Bruce,
I just checked our bill. We pay .372 per kwh.
I’ve heard PG&E is the highest in the country?

We are not far behind you here in CT, our supply rates went up 100% this past January, so we are now about $0.30/kwh. The utility got hit hard the past couple years with power outages due to downed wires from trees, the past month I have seen the tree companies going scorched earth in my town taking down any tree close to the lines, I’m expecting our delivery charge to jump at the next adjustment cycle. Last time they did that, they got so many complaints from residents about how bad it looks that the state made them stop, so we got more power outages, wash, rinse, repeat…

Your payback with almost TRIPLE my rates will improve your payback. You've got to wonder WHY you pay so much more than I do? Must be a "sin tax" for having a great climate.

Most of our power plants here in New England are natural gas, it needs to come through NY state, and they refuse to build more pipelines, in addition to their fracking ban, so our prices for gas are high compared to most of the country, which results in high electricity rates.

I don’t care about any of the carbon neutral stuff, I looked into solar purely for the financial aspect of it. I refuse to allow panels on the front of my house, and would buy them outright since I do not want to deal with the problems of selling a house with rented panels should we decide to move, so after asking for quotes from several companies that stopped by, I never heard another peep from them, so I guess that means they are not interested in my business.