El400 (EL403-M-v5-3 axis) DRO from PM, built by Electronica - three questions please :)

[MERLIncMan]

Gentlemen,

Have it installed on Milly (727V).

I must begin with two "philosophical position statements", that strike me as the raison d'etre of forums like this one:

1. If you can't open it, you don't own it (gatekeepers can bite it - I bought it, it's mine! I'm not concerned with warrantee, I'm concerned with my concerns!)
2. "Why" isn't really a valid question in the context of a home machine shop....
(got that last one from This Old Tony, and it is self-evidently true. One who asks "why would you, when you could... or should..." doesn't really understand)

Examining the documentation and the gizmo, there is a USB-b connector on the back, and the PDF instructions I've attached discusses serial communication (section 10.3).

1. There is the oEn_nod option that asks for a password - PM tech support seems confused by the existence of that - anyone know the password? (Electronica is thus far unresponsive). I am offended by a tool, that I own, ever saying "no" to me - What do you mean no? I own you! Obey me, tool!

2. The table of contents briefly says RS232 serial, but USB is NOT RS232 - if this thing is RS232, the discussed Hyper Terminal connection would be impossible without a hardware converter - Chart shows 8-n-1 serial protocol, so the USB should be outputting really generic binary, simple to read via serial gizmos, and should be 5v - but RS232 is 12v... I'm looking to output real-time position data via USB, but the options SERIAL and SER_CON shown in the documentation does not appear on my DRO... WTH? Any info on that?

3. What kind of switch is the probe input looking for? NC or NO? I am not about to spend $900 on a switch-on-a-stick from DROPros (sapphire or no sapphire, that's indefensible). It's a 3.5mm mono-phono, easy enough to make - but does it want a normally open or normally closed switch?

Any help would be awesome - remember the days when you could twist some wires on a parallel port, write three lines in BASIC, and make something go?

 

[ttabbal]

I don't know for sure the answers to your questions, but I do agree with the perspective. My rule with electronics is that if I'm not "root", I don't own it. Which irritates me when they charge a ton for them.

For your serial interface, I'm thinking it's an older manual that the manufacturer didn't bother to update. The USB port could connect to a PC and identify as a serial port, which would then be able to work the same way. That's not real helpful if you're trying to connect a microcontroller or similar. I do wish manufactures would be clear on serial voltages as well. +/-12 is a big difference from 0/5. I just don't trust them until I've checked with a logic analyzer or scope. The import USB connected LAs are cheap and work well for low speed stuff, and are safe for real RS232 voltages that would kill a micro. Note that there are microcontrollers that can do USB host, so if your connection is the type that works that way, you don't need anything real powerful to talk to it, it's just more complex now.

For the switch, I'd just try it both ways with a test setup. It's just a contact closure, so get a switch from the junk box or ebay or whatever, solder it to a plug and try both. Or even just twisted wires and see which way triggers the unit. Then you know and can buy a nice one as desired. It's insane that a high dollar probe can't swap between them with a jumper or something. sheesh.

You can get the same effect as the old parallel port stuff on micros. It's not ideal if you want to talk to it from a normal computer, but it is possible. If you want to do some really simple stuff similar to that, look up the UBW boards. I don't know if they still work on the project, but they are a super simple to use setup that connects to the PC with USB, and you just send serial commands to read/write the pins on the controller. The PC side can easily be BASIC, Python, shell scripts, whatever. Raspberry Pi boards have some of the same capabilities, and a bunch of extras.

 

[MERLIncMan]

I don't know for sure the answers to your questions, but I do agree with the perspective. My rule with electronics is that if I'm not "root", I don't own it. Which irritates me when they charge a ton for them.

For your serial interface, I'm thinking it's an older manual that the manufacturer didn't bother to update. The USB port could connect to a PC and identify as a serial port, which would then be able to work the same way. That's not real helpful if you're trying to connect a microcontroller or similar. I do wish manufactures would be clear on serial voltages as well. +/-12 is a big difference from 0/5. I just don't trust them until I've checked with a logic analyzer or scope. The import USB connected LAs are cheap and work well for low speed stuff, and are safe for real RS232 voltages that would kill a micro. Note that there are microcontrollers that can do USB host, so if your connection is the type that works that way, you don't need anything real powerful to talk to it, it's just more complex now.

For the switch, I'd just try it both ways with a test setup. It's just a contact closure, so get a switch from the junk box or ebay or whatever, solder it to a plug and try both. Or even just twisted wires and see which way triggers the unit. Then you know and can buy a nice one as desired. It's insane that a high dollar probe can't swap between them with a jumper or something. sheesh.

You can get the same effect as the old parallel port stuff on micros. It's not ideal if you want to talk to it from a normal computer, but it is possible. If you want to do some really simple stuff similar to that, look up the UBW boards. I don't know if they still work on the project, but they are a super simple to use setup that connects to the PC with USB, and you just send serial commands to read/write the pins on the controller. The PC side can easily be BASIC, Python, shell scripts, whatever. Raspberry Pi boards have some of the same capabilities, and a bunch of extras.

You're awesome - not to get all weird or anything, but I'm rather accustomed to the wankers over on Arduino and Chrysler forums that don't bother to answer the question while they beat you over the head with their credential, and tell you how dumb you are for not already knowing the answer to the question you asked

I will continue on this adventure. I thought that the probe switch could be just checked one way or the other, not my first 3.5mm phono accessory - or even the first probe (made one for my 6040T CNC).

I'm thinking of just plugging the USB into my laptop and seeing if Hyper Terminal can see the alleged binary stream.

OH! Mike from PM is totally a lurker here! He saw my post and let me know that the RS232 isn't in reference to the USB-b outlet, but rather the 15pin accessory thing (that I don't have in my unit)

So at least I'm not concerned about a voodoo USB signal! Thanks Mike!

 

[mksj]

I have the EL700
Probe is NC, no active electronics, just goes open when contacts an object. Tormach use to sell the same one for much less, but you would need a different jack, most other passive ones should work. Since it is just a switch, accuracy is around 0.001" I changed my probe to a larger ball to give more sensitivity. The probe and replacement probes tips through DRO Pros are ridiculously expensive, there are much less expensive alternatives.

USB port, at least on mine is only for software updates, and according to DRO Pros you would need to send it in to them to do this. Evidently it only works on one PC that they have, no direct support from Electronica on this matter at least when I checked for the EL700. On this level the Electronica DRO's take a back seat to many of the other mainstream DRO's available in the US that allow user updates.
Per my manual:
Auxiliary Connectors: 15-Pin D-Type Female for Auxiliary Output (Optional)
Jack Plug connector for Probe input (Optional)
USB B type Connector (for service only)

Not aware of a RS232 port per se, it does have a auxiliary connector option but does not seem to be your usual port, not a clear description of what it outputs. Also to view the output on a PC you need their software, not sure why one would want this implemented or how. If you have specific technical questions, I would direct them directly to Electronica. http://www.electronicaems.com

 

[MERLIncMan]

I have the EL700
Probe is NC, no active electronics, just goes open when contacts an object. Tormach use to sell the same one for much less, but you would need a different jack, most other passive ones should work. Since it is just a switch, accuracy is around 0.001" I changed my probe to a larger ball to give more sensitivity. The probe and replacement probes tips through DRO Pros are ridiculously expensive, there are much less expensive alternatives.

USB port, at least on mine is only for software updates, and according to DRO Pros you would need to send it in to them to do this. Evidently it only works on one PC that they have, no direct support from Electronica on this matter at least when I checked for the EL700. On this level the Electronica DRO's take a back seat to many of the other mainstream DRO's available in the US that allow user updates.
Per my manual:
Auxiliary Connectors: 15-Pin D-Type Female for Auxiliary Output (Optional)
Jack Plug connector for Probe input (Optional)
USB B type Connector (for service only)

Not aware of a RS232 port per se, it does have a auxiliary connector option but does not seem to be your usual port, not a clear description of what it outputs. Also to view the output on a PC you need their software, not sure why one would want this implemented or how. If you have specific technical questions, I would direct them directly to Electronica. http://www.electronicaems.com

Awesome, thanks!

FYI, I want to use the binary stream (8-n-1 serial) (section 10.3 of the included PDF claims it is see-able in Hyper Terminal) to dictate the motion of a stepper, that would then turn my BS-0 Dividing Head, so as to allow for helical milling - no room for a universal-gear-driven-DH ($$$) with my powerfeed.
Also, Mike from PM cleared up the RS232 strangeness.

 

[MikeWi]

I didn't really clear it up though. They are clearly referring the the DB15 connector, but they then describe using it to power relays for EDM, or for signaling high/low for tool positioning, and then they just say it can be used for communications with their software, so they aren't really saying much.

 

[MERLIncMan]

I didn't really clear it up though. They are clearly referring the the DB15 connector, but they then describe using it to power relays for EDM, or for signaling high/low for tool positioning, and then they just say it can be used for communications with their software, so they aren't really saying much.

Sorry to have called you out Mike

One could wish for thorough documentation to accompany every gizmo.

I don't know if I'm barking the wrong tree or not... maybe helical milling will be withheld from me by conspiracy of proprietary documentation... RPi did the same thing with their DSI port.

Wish I had gotten an engineering degree rather than having worked in engineering - then I'd be able to do the things, rather than just build them

Thanks though - I did appreciate your help, whatever the thing.

 

[svideo]

I've been looking into this and I think the deal is that the serial communication capability is an optional feature. I recently purchased a 728VT and it came with the EL403-M v5 DRO.

As others have noted, this device is made by Electronica Mechatronic Systems and the USB vendor ID "1D32" aligns with that. The product page for this device shows several variants. There's the "EL403-M 3 Axes Mill" which is what PM appears to be sending out, and there's the "EL413-M 3 Axes Mill with Options" model which I suspect is what we need in order to enable the serial output. The manual labels that port as "15-Pin D-Type Female For Auxiliary Output (Optional)". As noted, there is no guidance in the manual as to where one might be able to connect via serial, but I think it's likely intended to be accessed from the DSub15 option port, and also suggests that option port is only available on models listed as "with options".

According to the manual, the option output might have a couple different pinouts depending on the specific model in use. The EDM variant should have the following pinout:

While models "with options" have the following pinout:

Pins 5,7,8,13, and 14 are unused in both, which might be likely candidates for the serial capability.

Inside the device we can take a look at the IO PCB which has the various connectors and supporting components that face the back of the device.

Rear:

Front:

This board has two ribbon cables (one disconnected in the photo above) which both connect to the main controller board. Going back to our list of unaccounted for pins, visually I find the following:

Pin	Connection
5	Ribbon J2 to main PCB
7	NC
8	Power (connects to red/black cable and fuse F1)
13	Ribbon J2 to main PCB
14	Bridged to pin 15 (SW- for EDM variants)

There are also several unpopulated footprints near this port, which might mean that the necessary components for serial output are not present. However, based on the table above, I think pins 5 and 13 might be good starting points for investigation.

I have some PCB mount DSub 15 connectors on order and will solder those in place which will make this hunt a little easier.

 

[svideo]

OK skip that, I dug out some probes which let me take a look at pins 5 and 13 while under power (but disconnected from the encoder inputs). No signal on either pin

I also note that serial options are not available in the setup menus, which suggests the feature may be software disabled on this specific variant.

 

[Janderso]

I have the same DRO but you guys are speaking in that funny techno-digital world that eludes me.
I really like it but it’s way more capable than me.