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Grizzly 4003G Lathe Chatter Problem

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Jamespvill

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#1
Hello All!

So I have had my Grizzly 4003G since August of 2012 and It had been an absolutely fantastic machine. It is used multiple times a week for at least an hour per session. It had never been crashed, tipped, or mangled in any way shape or form. I would like to think that I keep it in pretty good condition as I need the tolerances as tight as possible (As we all do).

Just last week I was turning some 6061 aluminum and noticed that there was lots of chatter marks on my piece. I was taking light cuts and using fluid. I have never had chatter marks on aluminum before! I just figured it was some bad aluminum or something of that nature...:thinking:

I was in a rush, so didn't put much thought into it. But today I was turning some stainless and there was huge amounts of chatter on the piece, and audible squealing.(I've never had problems with SS before) So I reset everything, fresh cutter edge, and tried again. Same results...So I moved onto mild steel, then aluminum again and the same horrible chatter. My stick-out was only an inch or so and even when I put my live center on it, the piece still had chatter marks.

I double checked all of my gibs, rechecked my tool height, made sure every nut and bolt was tight on the machine, double checked it was still level, and pulled out my favorite machining 12L14 stock to confirm...Same chatter!!! :panic:

So...It appears as though I am in need of some serious help! Both with my machine and mental state at the moment! (I don't want a $3,000 paperweight!)

I'm afraid it may be bearings that are causing my problems, but I have no idea how to approach confirming that is the problem or how to replace the darn things...I'll admit I have very, very little knowledge of bearings at all, and am a bit intimidated by the though of pulling apart my Lathe.

Thanks in advance for anyone providing some help!
 

Smudgemo

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#2
Don't be afraid to call Grizzly's service dept. if you can't find something simple going on (M-F eastern time zone.) Those guys are super-helpful and may have additional information about your machine that you don't have. They once sent me an internal document for my prior benchtop mill that wasn't in the manual. Something about adjusting the spindle, I seem to recall. Hopefully it's just something that has gotten loose that's either not obvious or so obvious you aren't seeing it.

-Ryan
 

george wilson

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#3
I'm not taking the time to look up that model. BUT,if the lathe is a cabinet model and sitting on concrete,there's your problem. When I bought my 16 X 40 Grizzly in 1986,it ran like a bunch of small parts vibrating down a chute,and BADLY chattered metal. I found out when driving oak wedges under it in leveling it,the noise and the chattering stopped the instant I got it off the concrete floor,and onto the oak wedges.

Now,my lathe sits on Mason rubber pads,and has worked just fine and quietly ever since. I hope this is the answer to your problem. If it is a bench lathe,what is it sitting on? Get some hardwood under it,I'd suggest. Even not real thick hardwood will help.

P.S. I just saw another thread with pictures of the same model lathe. It is sitting on a cabinet. Do try getting the bottom of the lathe out of contact with the floor if it is concrete. I don't know why Grizzly lathes react that way (maybe all of them don't).but that was the solution to my problem.

Please post if my advice works. I do not think the Grizzly techs know the solution to this problem,though in 1986 I did tell them how I solved my problem. They were about to send me a new headstock!!
 
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Cobra

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#4
Sounds like it started suddenly.
Any changes to the environment, setup, or tools?
 

Jamespvill

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Okay, So I put some wood underneath the lathe to get it off the concrete, re-leveled and unfortunately the problem persists... It's been running on the concreter floor for the last year and a half with no problems.

Here are the chatter marks.

image-1.jpeg


I have been working mostly in aluminum lately, so audible chatter isn't too noticeable and I have been media blasting all my parts so finish from the lathe hasn't been a concern for the last two weeks. The problem may have started up to two weeks ago but I just didn't notice it at the time. All my tooling is the exact same and my setup, location and environment are all the same as they were 2 months ago.


I should probably stop stressing and just wait until tomorrow to give Grizzly tech support a call, they have been very helpful the last few times I called. But I think we all would all react about the same when our perfectly accurate machine starts putting out crap finishes.

Regardless, any more suggestions would be gladly accepted!

image-1.jpeg
 

Ray C

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#6
Common problem...

The jib in either (or both) the crossfeed and compound need to be adjusted.

NOTE: If you remove the crossfeed from the unit to clean the jibs, wear gloves and handle it carefully. The dovetails have very sharp edges and that's a 40lb block of metal. Last year, I was doing the same thing and in the process of carrying the crossslide to set it down, it stumbled from it's resting position and in the process of steadying it, I badly lacerated the inside tips of three fingers. 32 stitches and significant nerve damage that persists even now and 2 months of very sore/sensitive fingers to the point I could do almost nothing with that hand.

Ray
.
 

coolidge

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#7
Its a hail Marry but did you check the chuck? It sounds like you have done everything else so you might remove the chuck, clean inspect and reinstall to check that the cam bolts are still tight and turn them in a turn if you find some too loose. Check motor mounts, motor pulley. Does it chatter at all speeds and other gear box combinations?
 

Jamespvill

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Ray, Ouch! I remember seeing some pictures of your hand healing when I first joined the forum but never got the whole scoop! Sounds a bit like a fight that I had with some 304 SS swarf, but I think I was lucky with that one...very little nerve damage for me.

I thought it was gib problem to start with so adjusted them, then readjusted again until they were so tight I could barely move them, unfortunately chatter was still very present.



coolidge, Just this morning I had that Idea, so I went out, popped the chuck off, tightened everything more, cleaned everything and put it back on. Alas...there is still chatter. Also, whether it's at 200 rpms or 1000 I get chatter at a 5 thou depth of cut or a 50 thou

So far the lathe is winning, But that will change soon! I'll give grizzly a call in the morning and with the combined knowledge present here I do believe I will have a lathe running top notch again by Wednesday! (Gotta keep positive, right?)
 

Ray C

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#9
Try rotating the compound and take the cut at 0, 45 and 90 degrees and see if that makes the chatter go away. If it does, it's the jibs. The reason I pulled mine apart was because swarf was caught-up in there from turning brass and bronze. That stuff crumbles into little chunks and gets everywhere and as a result, I could not adjust the jibs -and they seemed snug. After cleaning and properly adjusting, the problem went away.


Ray
 

retmac

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Okay, So I put some wood underneath the lathe to get it off the concrete, re-leveled and unfortunately the problem persists... It's been running on the concreter floor for the last year and a half with no problems.

Here are the chatter marks.

View attachment 73345


I have been working mostly in aluminum lately, so audible chatter isn't too noticeable and I have been media blasting all my parts so finish from the lathe hasn't been a concern for the last two weeks. The problem may have started up to two weeks ago but I just didn't notice it at the time. All my tooling is the exact same and my setup, location and environment are all the same as they were 2 months ago.


I should probably stop stressing and just wait until tomorrow to give Grizzly tech support a call, they have been very helpful the last few times I called. But I think we all would all react about the same when our perfectly accurate machine starts putting out crap finishes.

Regardless, any more suggestions would be gladly accepted!
I see you are using a 3 jaw chuck,is it possible your jaws are worn and only griping at the back.
 

Jamespvill

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Okay, So I took a cut at 0, 45, and 90, chatter marks every angle, regardless I took everything apart to clean the gibs out and afterwards the problem remains. I also swapped to my brand-new four-jaw chuck to make sure the chuck was not the problem, same results with the four-jaw. I used to get glass-smooth finishes on aluminum with aluminum inserts on my machine...now I get a chattery finish that looks a bit like galvanized metal...

Im trying to keep a Thomas Edison sort of mood going now... "If I find 10,000 ways something won't work, I haven't failed. I am not discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is another step forward", Thomas A. Edison, Encyclopaedia Britannica
 

coolidge

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#12
Do you get chatter when you feed manually vs power feed? Do you get chatter when you do a face cut?
 

Jamespvill

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I get chatter when I am power feeding and feeding by hand. I haven't paid much attention to facing cuts, but I will check tomorrow.

Reading through the instruction manual it suggests that spindle bearing preload might be the culprit. This is new to me, So I'll risk feeling silly...What is and how do I measure end-play on my lathe?

In case I failed to explain myself properly here is a link to the manual online, page 76.
 

darkzero

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#14
Since you have already adjusted the gibs I'm going to suspect the tool post next. But first, did you check the compound slide gib also? Better yet, lock the compund slide & try again. If that's not it, are you using a QCTP? If yes wedge or piston type? Chips could have got caught somewhere preventing solid lock up.

You lathe is not old at all, I wouldn't suspect it to be the bearings or preload but it is possible.
 

Jamespvill

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Unfortunately I had something come up and Im out of town for the better part of the day today, but before I left I checked my toolpost, Its a piston type. Everything is locking up solid. I didn't have time to lock my compound slide but yesterday I tightened the gibs up to the max so I couldn't move them at all, and still chatter.

I also set a indicator up on surface where the chuck mounts (its specific name eludes me) and pushed on the spindle from the other side, I got 1 thou of movement. I also set it up inside and got 1 though of side-to-side play. Would this be considered normal or should there be none at all?

-James
 

george wilson

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#16
Sorry my suggestion didn't work for your lathe. It worked for mine like magic. Obviously your lathe has a different problem. Do you need to tighten the spindle up a bit? There are spanner nuts on the spindles that can be tightened to bring the angular surfaces of the bearings closer together,or just put more tension on them. Get them too tight and the headstock will get hotter in use,so be careful.

You might also make sure the bolts that bolt the headstock down to the bed are all tight. Modern Asian lathe headstocks sit on a ground flat area at the right hand end of the bed. The V ways do not go under the headstock. The head can be adjusted to make the lathe turn a true cylinder. If your lathe turns a true cylinder AND faces flat,you are lucky. It is within gov't. specs for lathes to face a little hollow. This is considered good for making flanges. I prefer my lathe to face dead flat,and luckily,it does.

I'm suspecting that your lathe needs the spindle adjusted a bit tighter,but I could be entirely wrong since I'm not there to examine your lathe.


Edited: Senior moment this A.M.,aided by strong pain killers for broken fingers: I could not recall the correct name for the spanner nuts earlier. Thanks for the post below for the jog!:)
 
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xalky

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#17
https://d27ewrs9ow50op.cloudfront.net/partslists/g4003g_pl.pdf Check out this parts drawing for your lathe. Part#156 in the drawing are the spanner nuts to tighten up the taper bearings. Tighten them up enough to remove the slop but not so much that they overheat. One nut locks against the other. You need to loosen the one closest to you first then turn in the inner nut, then lock them back together.
 

Jamespvill

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Success! So it turned out that snugging up the spanner nut for the taper roller bearings solved my problem. When I pulled the cover off to access the nut, I was a little concerned when one nut with a spit in it and two set screws in there instead of two spanner nuts. I would post a picture but I'm not sure how to clear up more room for my attachments.

As everyone should, I celebrated by blowing up 4 pounds of tannerite! :))

Thank you everyone for the help and advice, without all the extra help this process would have been much more difficult. Hopefully I can whip up a fantastic thread to pay everyone back!

Thanks again,

-James
 
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coolidge

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Congrats! Glad it was a simple fix.
 

darkzero

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Yup, congrats, good to hear!
 

george wilson

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#21
I am glad for your success,but I hope you do not whip up a fantastic THREAT for everyone!!!! Especially if you have 4 pounds of Tannerite!!!:):):)

My friends and I do not buy Tannerite because we do not want to end up on someone's list in the government.
 

Jamespvill

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I am glad for your success,but I hope you do not whip up a fantastic THREAT for everyone!!!! Especially if you have 4 pounds of Tannerite!!!:):):)

My friends and I do not buy Tannerite because we do not want to end up on someone's list in the government.


Haha!! Thanks for pointing that out! Fixed now!

But I agree with you on the list, unfortunately once the tannerite (or any other binary target) bug bites...it's hard to get rid of it! Fortunately I live on a farm in the middle of nowhere so we don't bother too many people and we can be as safe as possible.
 

Walsheng

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#23
This is good to know, about the bearing pre-load, not the Tannerite (not sure exactly what it is but I'm guessing if I Google it a little red flag goes up somewhere.)
I have been looking at the G4003G lathe and trying to learn as much as I can. I'm glad you solved the issue and it didn't wind up to be a major problem.

John
 

ortho

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#24
"one nut with a spit in it and two set screws in there instead of two spanner nuts"?
Wow, that's appalling. Congratulations on solving this chatter problem.
I have a 40003G and I will be cringing if time comes to readjust the preloads on the bearings.
---Joe
 

Jamespvill

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#25
This is good to know, about the bearing pre-load, not the Tannerite (not sure exactly what it is but I'm guessing if I Google it a little red flag goes up somewhere.)
I have been looking at the G4003G lathe and trying to learn as much as I can. I'm glad you solved the issue and it didn't wind up to be a major problem.

John

Tannerite is a binary target sold at most gun shops. Basically that means its two ingredients that when mixed together become quite the lively reactive target. It's completely safe when hit with a hammer, lit on fire, or dropped down the stairs but when it's shot with a bullet going at least 2000 Ft./s a sizable explosion is triggered. So it's completely legal to buy as long as your 18 (or 21 depending on location). It's very fun to play with and very safe as long as you follow the warnings on the box (Like stand back when shooting it!). Unfortunately some folks choose to be irresponsible with it, thus giving it a bad name in some circles of society.

- - - Updated - - -

Okay, So it appears I may have spoke too soon....My problem returned after a day of light use. I called up grizzly and talked to a very helpful man named Greg. I think Grizzly has changed quite a bit in the last few years, I remember people complaining how bad Grizzly customer support was years ago. Anyway, Greg confirmed my suspicions that it was likely a bearing. So onto my next question, has anyone ever taken the main spindle out of one of theses machines? I believe it's as simple as (haha, right?) taking off my collars from either side, taking a snap ring off in the gear box and whacking it through the gearbox? I'm hoping that when I get the spindle out, all the planets will align and I will see a clearly warn bearing and just screaming to be replaced...
 

dan12

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Tannerite is a binary target sold at most gun shops. Basically that means its two ingredients that when mixed together become quite the lively reactive target. It's completely safe when hit with a hammer, lit on fire, or dropped down the stairs but when it's shot with a bullet going at least 2000 Ft./s a sizable explosion is triggered. So it's completely legal to buy as long as your 18 (or 21 depending on location). It's very fun to play with and very safe as long as you follow the warnings on the box (Like stand back when shooting it!). Unfortunately some folks choose to be irresponsible with it, thus giving it a bad name in some circles of society.
yup
big explosions on son of guns or that fake russian on youtube use it.
fpsrussia,nearly got killed with debree:jester: still like his videos,lol

it's not legal in calif.,yet stores sell it here:whistle:???????????????

never tried it myself....

- - - Updated - - -

- - - Updated - - -

Okay, So it appears I may have spoke too soon....My problem returned after a day of light use. I called up grizzly and talked to a very helpful man named Greg. I think Grizzly has changed quite a bit in the last few years, I remember people complaining how bad Grizzly customer support was years ago. Anyway, Greg confirmed my suspicions that it was likely a bearing. So onto my next question, has anyone ever taken the main spindle out of one of theses machines? I believe it's as simple as (haha, right?) taking off my collars from either side, taking a snap ring off in the gear box and whacking it through the gearbox? I'm hoping that when I get the spindle out, all the planets will align and I will see a clearly warn bearing and just screaming to be replaced...
I just bought a g4003g
I'm watching this thread
& searching for anything here on this lathe to gain info on all things g4003g
hope it's a quick fix buddy:allgood:
 

gdu

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#27
Grizzly Tech support should be able to give you a step by step guide via email. Review their procedure to make sure it makes sense. Check youtube to see if you can find any vids for any 12x36 spindle bearing change.

Bearing failure should be reflected by high radial or axial movement of your chuck/spindle if you prise it with a short (24") lever. You should also see some "cuttings" (metal particles) at the bottom of the oil sump.

I am surprised that your bearings have gone already. Did you follow the break in procedure for the headstock with an oil change after 2 hours or so of running? I have a G4003. I removed the cover and cleaned the bottom of the sump after the run in period. I found a fair amount of cuttings. I put in some magnets to catch anything I could not get out or formed during regular use.

MK
 

Jamespvill

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:whiteflag: <---- Thats me, waiving the white flag and hoping that the lathe fairy will come down and fix my lathe. So I pulled out my spindle, popped out my bearings and races, both were unevenly worn and there were some scratches in the races. (Yay! This must be my problem, right?!) So I went and picked up brand new Timken bearings and races. Oddly enough the smaller one was made in Poland and the larger in Italy. I replaced them and threw the machine back together and........No better. Albeit, the lathe is quieter now, but the chatter and poor finishes still remain.


I have no doubt that when I finally do solve my problem, Im most likely going to feel quite silly. So I suppose I start from square one again now that I just shat $120 worth of bearings away. (Anyone want any NSK Japan made bearings?)

Add on top of all of this, My classes just started today...Too bad the Grizzly folks don't have techs that will come out and check machines!

My bearing replacement was rather wasteful but perhaps I'll post a full write up with pictures of the process if anyone is interested.

Also...Anyone interested in a used Grizzly 4003G Lathe? :lmao:
 

coolidge

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#29
I'd be interesting in hearing more about the bearing swap, it sounds like it wasn't that eventful. Did you ever try a face cut to see if its chattering? Divide and conquer, there's only a few things it could be so having eliminated the spindle and the chuck that doesn't leave too many things. Determining if it chatters on both OD turning and face cuts or not will give you more information. Have you adjusted the cross slide brass nut? Next I would look at the carriage, mine is brand spanking new and the carriage already moves too easily imo. Does it chatter turning in both left and right directions?
 

gdu

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Please post the bearing changeout pics. That way we can benefit from your hard work. I was not able to find any bearing change for this model documented online.

MK
 
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