Help me learn what CNC machine I need

[Eddyde]

I don't have a lot of CNC advice but I have been self employed most of my working life and can offer advice in that regard. #1 get a good accountant, this can make or break you so shop around, do not use any national accounting services and don't DIY. A good way to find one is ask someone who is in a successful business who they use.

 

[Investigator]

There are used Haas's around fairly reasonable . I consider these the throwaway CNC machines but the price isn't bad .......

Man, you have opened a can of worms.

I agree with @mmcmdl, a Haas ST-15-Y would work for your application, but they are a throwaway machine. .......

OK. what do you guys mean by throw away machine? When I think of that I think a machine that can't be repaired and is used until it breaks and is sold as used. I don't think that's what you are saying in context, but I don't know what the term means.

 

[JimDawson]

OK. what do you guys mean by throw away machine? When I think of that I think a machine that can't be repaired and is used until it breaks and is sold as used. I don't think that's what you are saying in context, but I don't know what the term means.

They are light weight machines that are just not as robust as the Japanese and Korean CNC machines that are designed to run at max capacity 24/7. Having said that, we own a 2016 Haas TM2-P mill and when it wears out we'll sell it for scrap price and get another one. Not worth rebuilding. My Hardinge lathe is a 1987, and it runs every day and still cuts like new.

 

[mmcmdl]

I ran Makinos for years with absolutely zero issues . Slant beds , Fanuc conversational programming , full graphics but no live tooling ( although I made my own many times ) . Rock solid machines that I could hold a tenth all day after bringing it up to temp . We brought Mazaks and Haas's into the production shop along with a few other odd ball machines and had issues with all of them . These were programmed by the so called programmers but regardless , they always had their faults and were down . My buddy , friend and ex-coworker Joe owns Chesapeake Machine here in Balto and has his shop full of Haas's . From my understanding he has issues all the time and only keeps these machines for 2 years or so and dumps them . With that being said , I would still buy one if I had the need but would baby it and not run it like I stole it . CNC's are like toys . Lots of fun to program and run your first 2 parts , but after that pretty much boring . 1 piece = prototype . 2 pieces = matched pair . 3 pieces = production run .

 

[markba633csi]

I wonder how a new Tormach would hold up?

 

[DavidR8]

1 piece = prototype . 2 pieces = matched pair . 3 pieces = production run .

A male, single friend of mine used to say "one pizza is dinner, two is groceries"

 

[mmcmdl]

CNC Machining Capabilities — Netzer Metalworks

netzermetal.com

Jim the owner died long back and his wife kept the shop going after his passing . I ran a midnight shift for him for a couple of years back in the early 90s . Check out the machines . The Matsuuras are still going strong making aerospace parts and they are at least 30 years old which makes me .................................................real old .

 

[Investigator]

Thank you all for the information. I think something in the neighborhood of a Haas ST10Y is what I would need. Looks like it has the capacity.
I'm going to keep an eye out, will likely go with used if I can find one. I'm not in a hurry, I'll retire in March and the likely get some CAD/CAM training. If I do the business, it will be just me will some long distance assistance from my son who is a ME.

 

[BGHansen]

How many parts per? not sure if that's what you're asking or something else.
Obviously it will depend on demand and sales. I'm estimating (read hoping for) 1000 baffles and 50 muzzle brakes per month. Hopefully that number will increase.

Congrats on the upcoming retirement AND realizing that you need to have something that exercises your body and brain for the 40+ hours a week that your soon-to-be former job was occupying.

I retired a couple of years ago and putter around making parts for old Erector sets which is a REALLY small market. I typically start with a prototype to work out the kinks. Then make a half-dozen while timing myself doing the work manually. I'll throw a few on eBay to test the market. Some end up being duds, some get refinements based on volume to reduce build time, yet others stay low volume and are done manually. I have a couple of CNC mills, but just manual lathes.

I'm curious if someone else is already making the baffles and muzzle brakes? I'm asking because the numbers you're anticipating are pretty high volume. If there's that big of a market, kudos for you tapping into it on the front end. Otherwise, it's kind of hard to start from scratch and be competitive with someone else who is already up and running. Of course, like my niche market, prices and availability can create some competition. Quick example is there's a part I made a few years ago on my Tormach; really quick job using the 4th axis. I sold them for $10 each at shows, threw a few on eBay and got over $50. Now someone else is making them too asking $40 (I still list them for $10).

If the volume is high enough, no doubt CNC is the way to go. I do cost-based pricing for the most part which includes my time. CNC can save a lot of time on most parts. However, you might be able to do some creative fixturing and go pretty fast manually.

Bruce

p.s. Here are a couple of threads showing some stuff I make. One is done totally manually, but with improved tooling, I went from 4-5 and hour to comfortably doing 25. The other is a mainly CNC part that was refined as I got smarter; now they take less than half the original time.

Gilbert Erector set part number DT one-hole coupling

Yup, yet another reproduction Erector set part thread . . . This one is Erector part number DT, one-hole coupling. The part is made from 5/16” diameter brass with an 11/64” hole up the center, 11/64” hole through the side and a 6-32 tapped hole on the side 90 deg. from the side through hole...

www.hobby-machinist.com

Gilbert Erector set 1913 motor

Been awhile since I’ve posted a reproduction Erector set part thread. Here’s one that took quite a bit of time and involved a number of different parts that go into an assembly: circa 1913 Erector set motor. Here are a few pictures of the finished product. Reproduction assembled 1913 Erector...

www.hobby-machinist.com

 

[Investigator]

Congrats on the upcoming retirement AND realizing that you need to have something that exercises your body and brain for the 40+ hours a week that your soon-to-be former job was occupying.


I'm curious if someone else is already making the baffles and muzzle brakes? I'm asking because the numbers you're anticipating are pretty high volume. If there's that big of a market, kudos for you tapping into it on the front end. Otherwise, it's kind of hard to start from scratch and be competitive with someone else who is already up and running. Of course, like my niche market, prices and availability can create some competition. Quick example is there's a part I made a few years ago on my Tormach; really quick job using the 4th axis. I sold them for $10 each at shows, threw a few on eBay and got over $50. Now someone else is making them too asking $40 (I still list them for $10).

The numbers I quoted are a bit high I admit. Basically those numbers (to me ) reflect planning for the future after the business becomes established. I used them to help define what I might eventually need capacity wise.

To answer your question 'does anyone else make them?" Yes. Suppressors are regulated by the ATF like a machine gun. That means that every individual suppressor made has a "form" on file with the ATF. It could be a "Form 1" meaning it's home built, or a "Form 4" meaning its built by a manufacturer and sold to consumers. In fiscal year 2022 the ATF received between 1.6 and 3.5 million forms. Of which the ATF reports that 79% are for suppressors. The range is because the information from the ATF is hard to decipher and they use both numbers. So that means that somewhere between 1.2 million and 2.7 million suppressors were sold in 2022. The numbers have been trending up each year for over a decade. Each suppressor, depending on design would have possibly as many as 8 or more baffles (many designs less). Many if not most suppressor manufacturers sell a muzzle brake with each suppressor to serve as the mount. Many people purchase one suppressor and multiple brakes so they can swap the suppressor between multiple firearms.

I can think of roughly a dozen 'major' manufacturers of suppressors. There are many other smaller manufacturers producing suppressors. From what I've seen some of them seem to have the business plan of selling cheaper with less performance than the big guys. Personally I'd like to build a high quality product that can compete with the big guys performance wise and because of my size and overhead produce that at a lower price point. I don't plan to sell as many as the big guys.

Hope that helps a bit to explain my thinking

As an aside, asking anyone who knows, what other machines are going to be comparable to a Haas ST10Y? And, how big a problem is it running one of these 3 phase machines on single phase power with an RPC in a home shop type environment?