How to Raise a Vice on a Kneeless Mill?

[Robo_Pi]

I have one of those 3-in-1 Lathe/Mill/Drill machines. I'm trying to do some light milling on it.

One major problem is that the table is way beneath the milling cutter. I actually bought a pretty tall X-Y vice to hold the workpieces. The main reason for buying this X-Y vice was to raise the workpiece up. But it is nice to have the X-Y adjustments too for getting things adjusted initially. I tend to lock those down then when I'm actually doing the milling and I use the Lathe Saddle for the actual feed. So far this has been working for me. But today I ran into two problems.

1. I'm trying to mill a very small piece of work.
2. I've eliminated the drill chuck from the mill arbor and I'm using a collet to hold the end mill.

First let me share some photos of the set up, then I'll address the problems on the other side.

Below:
Picture of the workpiece in the vice with the mill quill fully retracted.
PHOTO A:


Below:
Picture of the workpiece in the vice with the mill quill fully extended.
PHOTO B:


As you can see the mill cutter doesn't even reach the workpiece when the mill quill is fully extended.

The problem I had when using the drill chuck was simply too much play. For one thing I couldn't even get the milling cutter to sit very deeply in the drill chuck. I'm using a double-ended mill, so it wouldn't go in the drill chuck very far. So now I've put the end mill in a MT3 collet. It fits in much further, and since there is no drill chuck it's also much higher and closer to the end of the quill. So now I can't even reach the workpiece with the quill fully extended.

Not only this, but ideally I'd like to work with the quill retracted into the milling head as far as possible. The further I extend the quill the more likely I'll run into potential problems with the cutter not being real stable.

Since there is no Z-axis on the table, I can't lift up the workpiece using a Z-axis screw. So the only thing left to do is to block up the vice. I figure I'll need to put a mounting plate between the vice and the table to lift the vice up a good 3" or so. But I don't have any steel or even aluminum blocks to use to block this up. So I'm wondering if maybe I could weld something up out of angle iron? I could then mill the finished thing flat and parallel with the mill. Since the extension block would be tall enough I could put it in the vice as is, and it would already be 3" taller.

Just curious if anyone else has any other suggestions? Also, I'm wondering if a block of oak would work in a pinch for this lightweight job for now? I have a woodshop and I could mill up a nice wooden block of oak pretty quickly. But I wonder if the wood would give and cause vibrations or chatter? I'm thinking a block of oak probably wouldn't work very well? But it is tempting since it would be a quick fix for now.

Finally, is it ok to hold a 1/4" end mill in an MT3 collet? The collet is 3/8" as is the body of the 1/4" end mill. I just bought these MT3 collets to use on the lathe, I certainly don't want to ruin one by spinning this endmill in one.

I have some ER20 collets on order to use in the Mill for holding tools, but they won't be here to the end of the month. So I was going to try using this MT3 collet for now. That is, if I can lift the work piece up to where I can mill it.

All I want to do is mill the inside corner of a piece of angle steel so that the corner is nice and square instead of rounded. This shouldn't take much milling to do this. Just basically cleaning up an inside corner.

I just need a rock solid way to lift this vice up about 3".

Any suggestions? Other than buying a real mill.

I do plan on buying a real mill someday, but that's another story entirely.

 

[kd4gij]

An end mill holder would get your bit down lower.

 

[Cooter Brown]

Buy 2 sets of cheap 123 blocks and stick them under the vise... Or get a lage block of steel/aluminum and make a spacer... Or Like kd4gij above^ said get a tool holder like an ER32 collet holder or set screw end mill holder, that can lower your tooling almost 2 inches very easily....

 

[DAT510]

From the pictures it looks like there's a spacer installed to raise the mill head? (The silver Block, Red Arrow) If it can be removed it will lower the milling head by that amount.

 

[Robo_Pi]

From the pictures it looks like there's a spacer installed to raise the mill head? (The silver Block, Red Arrow) If it can be removed it will lower the milling head by that amount.

I just went out and looked. It doesn't look like that would be easy to remove. I also looked in the manual I have for this mill. They actually have a second model that does have the adjustable head. But that model is shown with large handles sticking out with a large thread where the silver metal band is.

I don't think the model I have is meant to be adjusted that way. There are two Philips head screws in the back holding that silver band on there. I'm thinking that's just a thin band of metal that is just a cover. It would even be hard to remove that cover because the belt drive box is right up against it. It might be interesting to take that cover off and see what's under there some day. But I'm doubting that this model can be adjusted for height.

Buy 2 sets of cheap 123 blocks and stick them under the vise... Or get a lage block of steel/aluminum and make a spacer...

I have 123 blocks on my wish list. But that seems like a kind of fragile fix for this problem. I would need to use 4 of them standing up to get the 3" height on all four corners of the vice. I'd rather go for the large block of steel or aluminum and make a spacer. Not sure where to get a block that size though. It would need to be about 3" x 6" x 8". If I had a piece of stock that size I'd make a nice table riser out of it.

Better yet would be three pieces of 1" x 6" x 8". That way I could stack them and use it to raise the vice 1" at a clip. More versatility that way. Yeah, I'll definitely keep my eyes open for some stock that size.

Or Like kd4gij above^ said get a tool holder like an ER32 collet holder or set screw end mill holder, that can lower your tooling almost 2 inches very easily....

I have a 14 pc set of ER20 collets on order the go from 1/8" to 1/2". In fact, I bought those specifically to use as tool holders on this mill head. Those will be here on Friday. Unfortunately the MT3 to ER20 collet holder won't be here until later this month. I'd like to mill this angle iron out before then.

But even with an additional 2" on the tool holder I'd still need to extend the quill quite far to get down to the work area. So even then I would still like to have those riser plates. But I'm glad I posted this thread. I was thinking of making just one large block. Not I'm thinking of making three of them 1" thick and stacking them. That will give me more room for ajustment depending on the size of the workpiece.


What do you guys think of the block of nicely planed Oak just for a quick fix? Do you think the wood spacer would be too shaky, even for really light cuts? I don't want to break another end mill. I already broke one end mill in the previous set-up using the drill chuck. That's why I'm realizing now that I need to get more rigidity here. Especially at the tool end. Of course, when I was using the drill chuck the end mill was sticking out of the chuck pretty far because it's a double-ended mill and bottomed out in the drill chuck. So it was sticking out quite a bit. I didn't like that when I started working with it. I should have known that wasn't going to turn out well.

 

[ttabbal]

There's a guy on ebay that sells 7075 aluminum drops "Fortal" brand. Message him and ask about the size you want. He was happy to make sure my box included one that would work for me. scottkrez is his ebay name.

 

[BROCKWOOD]

Newb speaking to a Hobbyist. My combo is very different from yours. G0773 for mine. My 1st metal machine outside of automotive necessities. Thought I had an R8 for the mill column as newer versions did, so got an R8 collet adaptor with collets along with the machine. Dang it, my new machine was built prior to all the changes that the included instructions had. So got the same thing in MT3 with it's own collets. Double dang. No space to work with such an adaptor. Measure twice cut once............ So I got my arse & wallet out from the front of all this & bent myself to understanding what, just what, would actually fit my situation. I went with a direct MT3 collet set & am in business now. Seems that is what you are using now & a good choice for most of what you might find yourself doing too!

How does that help you? Well let us return to your actual topic. Raising your work up on your cross slide adds error in that no matter how secure the stack of vise + whatever is: the small angle of deflection that cross slide has vertically is multiplied be the width of that angle created that slop. I suppose when you lock the table down only the lift will be in only 1 direction. I am certain you can account for that & avoid it. Just know that if any 1 direction can cause a 1 degree shift Now that shift, while very small near the X axis can be 0.1075 @ 6". Experiment with this & make do with what you have. Learn on scrap. Take measurements. Compare expected results to actual & learn what you can from that.

The Grizzly T10070 MT3 adaptor set with collets is what you need to get down low - perhaps from another vender. But you can see what it looks like & look around for better prices. When / if you decide this would be a direction that is right for you: I have an unused set in box that I will let go & ship for 1/2 new regular price to lower 48 states. You get a tool you can use. I get to cut the expense I made in learning the hard way to measure & understand before buying easier to swallow.

Best wishes!!!

b

 

[tweinke]

Smithy sells what they call a step block to raise the work up. https://www.smithy.com/accessories/milling-setup/granite .

 

[GL]

I'm with Dat510, that spacer needs to come out. I'm betting if you pull the drill head, there are bolts holding everything together in the stack. Probably 4 socket head capscrews. The possible problem may be that you lose vertical enough that drills don't fit. The chuck will take up some of the space. The pictures seem to show it would still work. Screw machine drill bits will reduce the need for vertical space, and they are stiffer. Spacing the vice up puts a bunch odd side loads on the compound of the lathe if you are milling.

 

[Robo_Pi]

Smithy sells what they call a step block to raise the work up. https://www.smithy.com/accessories/milling-setup/granite .

That is really nice, and I'd love to have it. But I'm not prepared to pay that much for it. I was thinking of buying a steel or aluminum block and making my own, but even that raw block of metal would cost me $60 or more, and I really didn't even want to spend that much. In fact, I'd like to solve this problem for free. But that just me.

In any case that's what I'm going to try to do. I just realized that I have an old mower deck laying out in the mud that I don't even have the tractor for anymore.



I know it looks pretty bad, but them there straps are 3/8" thick steel. So I grabbed those straps.



It turns out that they are perfect for this job. Look at those slots!!! Just what the doctor ordered. Notice the two short ones, they actually fit almost perfectly on the lathe table, (see next photo)



Those slots are really nice, the other two holes are misplaced, but I can drill new holes for the far end.

These straps were screaming at me. "Use us! Use us!". So I did. I cut them all down to size like the two shorts ones. And then cleaned them up with a wire brush on a 4.5" grinder.


They aren't perfectly flat, but actually they are pretty darn flat considering their previous use. Some day I might take a light milling cut on them top and bottom to get them nice and flat.

In the meantime I'm going to us them as is. After I drill the second hole in all of them.

Here's what they look like under the vice.




I realize this would make any real machinists squirm, but it's not like this is going on a Bridgeport mill, or anything like that. As long as it's solid enough for my light cuts it'll work. I can always use shims to line up the vice and work to the tolerances I need.

The nice thing about this set up is that I can use as many of these as needed to raise the vice as much as I need. It's basically adjustable height by 3/8" intervals. There were even a couple more thick straps on that mowing deck, so I could stack some even higher yet. I'm currently up to about 1 - 3/4" right now.

I haven't drilled the second holes yet. And then I'll need to get some taller T-bolt studs. We'll see how this goes. It could turn out to be a disaster if it vibrates too much. Only time will tell.

Obviously a solid block would be better. But hopefully this will get me by for light work. I'm hoping to buy a real milling machine at some future point. And this thing is never going to replace a real milling machine anyway. But I'm trying to get by with it for now.

After I drill the second hole in all the straps and make up some longer T-bolts I'll report back on how well it's working.

Hey, can't complain too much about a "free" fix.

No heavy milling. Just light work here. This thing will never be a Bridgeport. Let's face it.