I Got Burnt!!

[Sandia]

I would demand a refund, and then I would look for another brand.

 

[Coomba]

Like I said before I'm just starting out so there is a lot I don't know. I did take the machine apart clean, and oil it. I didn't want to take apart anything else because, with my luck they would tell me I voided the warranty. I do realize that I would have to fix up a few things, that's not a problem. I was told that when these mills come in, they are inspected, and the main bearings are replaced with a much higher quality bearing. I know now that when they come in, they are just forwarded to the customers, without even being looked at. I mean how does one justify sending out a mill in that condition. Especially a second replacement mill. I have tried to negotiate but that didn't happen. I've made several attempts to contact them with no reply. In my very last e-mail I asked just what they would do for me, and still no reply. Remember this has been going on now for about seven months. Now I have two machines. I can tear them both down and make one good machine, assuming all the parts are good, or sell them and buy something else. A barrel of fine cognac sounds good about now. I know the machine is build in China and the workmanship is not there, but dog it, Charter Oak is an American company and they need to have some pride. Several guys have talked about a flat table. This is something that I have no Ideal about. Would someone explain the procedure to find this out. Thanks.

 

[joshua43214]

Please do not take this wrong, but I think you are expecting too much on some of your issues. Even though the CO machine is comparatively expensive, it is still a cheap import. The difference is that CO supposedly does all the finishing work in America, and you get the largest work envelope of any machine of similar size. Like all cheap imports, it must be taken apart, cleaned, de-burred, and adjusted.

Near as I can tell, you have only one possible real issue - the noise from the gear box and with wobbling handle. This machine will always be noisy, it is the nature of gear hear machines. Just take the apart and find out what the problem is. Most likely two gears are rubbing, just de-bur and adjust. A video of the sound and wobble is not enough to figure out what the problem is, you need to open the machine up and inspect. Maybe you just need to clean some stuff up, maybe it needs a new gear, maybe the holes in the casting are drilled wrong. CO needs to know this so they know how to service you.

Loose screws are GOOD! These Chinese machines are renowned for having crappy screws and poor castings. Back in the good old days, they came with everything over-tightened and you had to replace all the screws and re-tap a lot of holes. Loose screws mean you can safely dismantle the machine (which you should always do with an import), clean and reassemble with out hassle.

The ticking on the handle is probably the handle itself, or the alignment of the union between the handle and the screw. Many machines do this. It should have no effect on the quality of the cut unless there is a large mis-alignment and a power feed is used.

Tight table is just an adjustment. As long as it does not go loose/tight/loose of get tighter as you travel is it fine. Adjust the machine and be done.

Casting voids are harmless. This is one place in particular that you are asking too much. The best and most expensive milling machines on the planet have voids, normally they are filled with lead or body putty depending on where the void is, and painted over. The only areas that need to be void free are the milled/ground surfaces.

Now I understand that you are trying to make a case for getting a defective machine, but complaining about the minor items only sends a message to the company that you are not familiar with the machine and they will label you as a "problem customer." Every company has a different way of dealing with a problem customer. Getting ignored is the most common. Honestly, if I was Charter Oak and saw this video, I would send a truck around to collect the machines and hand you a check for a full refund since I know I could never make you happy.

I know you are unhappy with your mill, I am feeling the same way about my Sieg SC8 lathe. I daily regret my purchase, and I suspect that I will be selling it soon and replacing it with anything else. Sieg seems to have issues cutting gears that are on center. If the gears in your mill are made in the same factory as those in my lathe, you might find some have >0.010" run-out making them mesh improperly.

-Josh

 

[RJSakowski]

Now I have two machines. I can tear them both down and make one good machine, assuming all the parts are good, or sell them and buy something else.

Wait a minute! You have two machines in your possession and they're not asking for a return? That doesn't sound like too bad a deal to me. Sure it sucks that you can purchase a new piece of equipment and have to go through a rebuild before you can use it and I totally understand your frustration, having gone through it myself a number of times. but a half price machine? And a 2 axis DRO as well?

As far as the Chinese manufacturers and American importers go, yours is not an isolated problem.

A large and well known company who claim to have their Q.C. inspectors overseas as well as here in the States have their share of problems too. At work we bought a gear driven power head similar in design to yours and the gear positions marked on the power head face plate didn't match the actual position, both in orientation and spacing (engineering change w/o proper follow-through). The key for the R8 arbor was a dog point set screw which had no provision for locking in place and worked its way deeper to the point of preventing insertion of the R8 tooling (poor design). A lathe from the same company had belts that couldn't be installed, a lash adjustment set screw missing , a gear box input shaft with a key inserted backwards, damaging the shaft and cracking the spacer (improper assembly), and change gears that were a press fit instead of a slip fit (poor Q.C.). Some of the problems, we just fixed. We remarked the face plate to indicate proper gear shift positions. The missing set screw were promptly sent out with a call to their customer service, as were replacement belts of a slightly longer length.

We ordered a horizontal band saw from major machine tool supplier, and received one branded by another well known supplier. The power switch was wired with the line and load connected together so the saw couldn't be turned off (poor training/work instructions and poor Q.C.). I won't even go into small items.

I guess the point is we have several choices we can make, we can buy new and cheap, expecting problems; we can buy used quality machines and deal with all the issues of years of wear and tear and misuse, or we can shell out big bucks to get quality machines (not without their problems too).

If you truly do have two machines, I would suggest that you fire up the first and see if you have the same issues with your power head gears. If so, it may indicate a design issue. If not , you could tear into the second machine to see if it is an adjustment issue. Worst case, the power head can be swapped out which also solves your faceplate cosmetic issue. A new gear for your lift can be procured and you have two mills, one not so good which you can sell or whatever. Cosmetic defects like casting voids on non wear surfaces can be easily fixed with some epoxy and paint. BTW, the problem with the Tee slot is not major either. I expect it was due to a repositioning of the table when cutting the slots. Tee slots are for fixing the workpiece. If you choose to use it as a reference surface, as in locating a milling vice, you should take a skim cut to true the front surface; it isn't necessary on both. A few thousandths removed will not affect the strength of the Tee slot in a significant manner.

Bob

 

[wrmiller]

Like I said before I'm just starting out so there is a lot I don't know. I did take the machine apart clean, and oil it. I didn't want to take apart anything else because, with my luck they would tell me I voided the warranty. I do realize that I would have to fix up a few things, that's not a problem. I was told that when these mills come in, they are inspected, and the main bearings are replaced with a much higher quality bearing. I know now that when they come in, they are just forwarded to the customers, without even being looked at. I mean how does one justify sending out a mill in that condition. Especially a second replacement mill. I have tried to negotiate but that didn't happen. I've made several attempts to contact them with no reply. In my very last e-mail I asked just what they would do for me, and still no reply. Remember this has been going on now for about seven months. Now I have two machines. I can tear them both down and make one good machine, assuming all the parts are good, or sell them and buy something else. A barrel of fine cognac sounds good about now. I know the machine is build in China and the workmanship is not there, but dog it, Charter Oak is an American company and they need to have some pride. Several guys have talked about a flat table. This is something that I have no Ideal about. Would someone explain the procedure to find this out. Thanks.

I pretty much came to the same conclusion as you in that if these machines are inspected, then a blind man must be doing it. They DID replace the spindle bearings in mine, as part of the 3hp motor upgrade, as evidenced by the blue 'sealing-stuff-that-doesn't-seal-very-well' goop on the top plate. I was told that they have "non-factory employees" at various points in the manufacturing process doing inspections, but I find that hard to believe given the shape these machines are showing up at customers in. I cringe when I hear that someone new to this stuff buys a machine because I have only seen ONE machine that didn't need stuff done to it to get it right and it was expensive as all get out. (I have a neighbor that bought a BP mill that will require thousands of dollars that he doesn't have to make functional and he just wants to take it out to a field and blow it up)

I'm too far away to do a weekend run or two, or three, to help sort this out (I would prefer a good single-malt though). Are there any machine/machinist types in your area that could maybe help out? I like the idea of using both machines to make one functional one, but given these machines parentage I suspect that this would involve a lot of trial-and-error, hand fitment, application of a BFH, etc. to make it work and it would help to have someone with some experience at this looking over your shoulder. Helping would be even better. And I would be doing a lot of measuring to make sure this jigsaw puzzle works correctly. For example, to test the flatness of the table I have a fixture that goes in the spindle (via a collet) and I attach a dial indicator to it. Run the head down so the DI touches the table and move the table full length over X and Y (watch out for the t-slots when translating in Y) and read the dial. Mine never moved. I would test all axis movement to make sure the machine is running as close to true as possible.

 

[tomh]

Now I have two machines ??????

Are you saying that you have the first machine they sent you also?
Did they not request the first to be sent back?
Please explain this in more detail so we can get a clear understanding of why they are not communicating with you.

 

[coolidge]

That they claim to inspect these machines is a valid gripe. They obviously either don't inspect them or their inspection process is lacking.

Experience is key here. When I ordered my 1st machine I gave them a list of issues I had experienced on a previous machine of this type years ago. I told them if you ship me a machine with any of these issues the machine will be returned for a refund so do yourself a favor and don't ship me a machine with these issues in the first place.

So the 1st machine arrived and had a whole set of new quality issues that were not on my list arrrgh!

1. There was rust everywhere in particular the X axis ACME screw was never lubed at the factory and was so rusted it had to be replaced.
2. The micro feed was defective.
3. The cord grip on the motor (Leeson 3hp) did not fit the extra thick threaded Leeson electrical box and just popped off.
4. The head had some kind of defect allowing the shift lever to move too far and lock the gears up, this faulted out the VFD.
5. The head shift lever when adjusted as best as I could adjust it still wobbled.

They sent me a new X axis screw/nut, micro feed, I purchased the correct cord grip from McMasters (they offered to reimburse me) and I set about fixing this stuff. I was NOT happy having to make these repairs but vs returning the mill and waiting a couple months for a replacement I decided to do the repairs.

Then I finally got around to checking the ways and the Y axis ways were tapered .005 over 10 inches, that was one of the deal breakers I had discussed with them before ordering. We both threw in the towel at that point and they shipped me a new machine. I gave them a choice, return the 1st mill issue a full refund including shipping or ship me a 2nd machine with the understanding that if it had any of these issues the 2nd machine would also be returned and I would be done with them. In other words inspect this 2nd machine carefully. I gave them a specific list of quality checks to perform before they shipped the 2nd machine that included my previous list of issues and all the new ones. They did complete my quality check list and a few more things they decided to check. Could the inspect every machine to that level and still make money on the sale, I don't know.

The lesson here is to SET EXPECTATIONS up front at the time of purchase and control the transaction. Both sides understand what happens if those expectations are not met, as I had done this there really wasn't any debate when the 1st machine had issues. No months long email tug of war. No negotiation.

I will say throughout the process Paul and I worked well together. He threw in some freebies for my trouble a couple of times. Email replies were not always immediate, they are running a business I get that, but I never got the feeling they were ignoring me. We discussed some of their frustration with the factory. It seems like with each new shipment they had implemented steps at the factory to resolve issues they had found with the previous shipment but then a new issue would surface. I do feel they are making incremental improvements over time.

 

[markknx]

OK guys I get the whole it is an import Chinese machine thing. I also know that the first thing you need to do on these machines and even more expensive ones is a good clean and tune. I even feel many of Coomba's issues would go away with a good clean and tune. But one must say that the amount of issues on this one machine speaks volumes to the lack of QC over at CO. This said I also am unclear about if he has both machines still if so I think I would swap out parts till I had one nice machine, tear down the head of the noisy one see if I could get rid of the noise and use that mill for rough work, a drill press or even as a second mill if I could make it a fair machine. Not to sat this does not make me see CO a little different. Just saying Coomba may be able to make some lemonade out of theses lemons.
Pulling the right side lever and milling the block down .010-.020 would solve that issue Quick enough. As stated let us know if you have both and get to keep them.
Mark

 

[brino]

.....an interesting read. A lot of well-thought out responses, and some great examples.

I can sure understand Coomba's frustration and disappointment. To me $2,350 (Coolidge's figure) is a big cost. I would expect a decent quality, fully functional machine for that money. Something that comes out of the box, and with minor cleaning and lube could be put to work nearly immediately making quality parts.

I also see lots of people willing to compromise; some of those things are minor, and Coomba calls them such! Personally, I (hopefully!) would not have cranked that level hard enough to scratch the faceplate, I'd have noticed the interference, *****ed about it and readjusted it.

However that x-feed noise? Could be minor(feed handle), could be bigger(bearing or nut), we won't know until it's investigated.
That lever shake and spindle noise........wow. Not likely going to make quality parts like that.....

And coolidge's statement:

Then I finally got around to checking the ways and the Y axis ways were tapered .005 over 10 inches, that was one of the deal breakers I had discussed with them before ordering.

Holy crap, that's waaay off! A "deal breaker" is putting it mildly!
That was on his initial list of issue due to previous experience.
To me, a customer having to specify that the ways should not be tapered is far outside of all reasonable expectations!

If I'm buying a milling machine, it should out-of-the box operate as a milling machine...and being accurate is inherent in that!
And the more money I pay the more accurate it should be. At this price I would want/expect less than 1 thou. over the working range.

But how does a newbie set expectations properly? Their own and the suppliers.
Should a newbie not even consider a machine at this price-point, but be forced to pay double to have someone actually test/inspect it knowing that a newbie owner won't know how to evaluate or adjust/tweak it properly? What suppliers offer that "extra" service?
Should the supplier not sell to an inexperienced buyer?

The whole discussion makes me shudder about buying anything new.
Even if issues do eventually get fixed who has the time for months of back-and-forth? What's that cost?
At least if I do get burned on a "used" purchase: 1) I'm not out the price of a new machine, and 2) I know that I am to blame due to lack of inspection/test. It almost seems the only way to set expectations properly...but that opinion has come from experience too.....

Thanks for all the discussions!
Coomba, I sincerely hope you can get to an acceptable resolution.

-brino

 

[wrmiller]

I've not heard of a machine yet that can be bought for $2k (roughly) and "out of the box" hold a thou over it's working range. Not even close. You won't get that out of a worn/used machine either. I don't care where it's made. Brand new BPs don't even advertise one-thou tolerance, and no experienced machinist I know would expect that.