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If money was no problem, what would you get??

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samthedog

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#31
RAY
Much appreciate the research on this.
"Tis good to listen to someone who has sold Lathes almost all his Life.

What does concern us a bit though is whether the SPINDLE BEARINGS would last the distance on this "VARIABLE-SPEED" driven Machine. U see, the Manufacturers stated top speed with the INVERTER is 2'000 RPM. We asked for this to be increased to 2'500 RPM with an similar increase in size of the MOTOR from 2 HP to 3HP. They agreed, obviously at a Price. However, we really don't know if that is what we will really get at the end of the day. We need the extra "Voom" more for very light finish cuts and POLISHING. Our present 14 x 40" running at 1'800 RPM top speed, does give us very satisfying Finishes, although it seems like we are pushing things a bit when it comes to continued POLISHING at these maximum speeds. We are working quite a bit on S/S and Ti and these Steels can be rather demanding both on machine and Labour.

Come to think of it, most of the top Branded HIGH SPEED Machines like the Hardinge copies ie., Eisen, Sharp and Cyclematic including the UK old stalwarts Colchester and Harrison are all today made in TAIWAN. So for us, there just might be a scare of the unknown factor lurking like a phantom.
Although this manufacturer we are dealing with may not be a top end Machine Supplier, we are sure, they are however exposed to the Standards of their competition and contemporaries in their own Country.
It all might just get together evenly.
Would like to know what U think.
Thanks again, graciously.
LORD BLESS
aRM
Splash lubrication is sufficient even for higher speed machines. My Colchester Chipmaster has a top speed of 3000 rpm and has a splash lubricated headstock. The headstock oil I use is Shell Morlina S2 BL 10 (which is the recommended oil). This oil has a viscosity of 10 and is pretty much like water.

At these speeds, the quality of your lubricant, size of your spindle bearings and stability of the machine is put to the test. This also means that the chucks you use need to be rated for these speeds and then you start talking higher level equipment. Both my 3 and 4 jaw chucks are rated to 3000 rpm and would likely cost the price of a cheap hobby lathe on their own so it's not simply a case of increasing the speed of a machine.

You really need to invest in good oil and keep a very strict maintenance routine when you start talking higher speeds. Regular checks are necessary at each day and checking that chucks and work are secure become critical. A 4 kilogram chuck spinning at 3000 rpm becomes an unstoppable missile.

I don't think it would be a problem to increase the speed to 2500 rpm, provided the mass of the work you turn is not too high or unbalanced as this would put a lot more strain on the bearings.

Paul.
 

george wilson

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#32
I am pretty sure the effectiveness of splash lubrication depends upon the design of the headstock. It did not keep the low speed shaft bearings of our 16" Grizzly lathe at work from going bad. I have the brother of that lathe at home. It is still in very fine shape because it has been used a lot less. We made heavy axles and bearing boxes for many of the wagons and carriages in the museum on the lathe at work,running at slow speeds.

Another problem with Taiwan made lathes is they always seem to leak oil from their headstocks. I tried to fix the one at work,but never solved the problem. Oil leaks out through the shifting levers,where they come through the side of the headstock. In my case,using lighter weight oil would only make the problem worse.

About Hardinge copies: I believe even the copies state that they use at least grade 7 bearings,possibly grade 9. The Hardinge uses grade 9. Back on the 90's Hardinge wanted $1250.00 to change the headstock bearings. They wanted you to remove the headstock and send it to them,so they could install and pre load the bearings properly. These days that price has probably doubled.

I don't know what grade bearings the average Taiwan 14" lathe uses,but,no doubt,it affects bearing life,along with the lubrication efficiency.
 

Ray C

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#33
Guys, just want to mention that I completely agree that a pressurized system is very desirable but, my definition of a "pressurized" system is not a small pump that trickles oil over a gear. My definition is more on the order of an automobile where channels and grooved bearing areas are fed under 30-40 PSI. There are lathes out there with that kind of system -but it's not in our price range.

I worked on a lot of antique diesel engines and many had various forms of "flappers" connected to a convenient rotating part that splashed into the oil and enhanced the distribution. All the famed "Lister" engines worked this way (they used a 4" long rod connected to the crankshaft). If you have a much older machine whose design does not included the benefit of a more modern layout, I think a more effective method and less likely to cause foaming, is to make some cam-like fins or protrusions attached to an appropriate spinning component that splashs the oil where it's needed. I would not even consider this on any lathe where you do not suspect (and have verified) a problem.

Translated: If you value the warranty on your newer equipment, don't mess with it unless A) you really know what you're doing B) you've discussed it with the seller who supports the warranty.

If you've ever made the mistake of (or did it out of curiosity) running an engine with the valve covers removed, you'll have a rough clue of how vigorously the oil is splashed around inside a gearbox. If you're really that curious, cut a hole in your gearbox cover and make and install an acrylic sight glass...

Ray
 

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#34
Any ideas on small pumps that could be mounted on the backside of headstocks,with small copper pipes running to bearings?
 

Ray C

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#35
George,

See the last post I made. Is there any way you can firmly attach a "flapper" of some sort that will splash into the reservoir and direct oil to the place it's needed? Maybe some small fins on the side of a nearby gear (of course, they would need to be attached very solidly).

I don't think an aquarium pump will do too well with 20-30 W oil. Even if it did manage to suck-up the oil, the air moving around from the turbulence of the exposed gears would might make it difficult to direct the trickle of oil on the place you want it most.


Ray
 

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#36
I deleted that,Ray. I forgot that an aquarium pump pumps AIR!! Senior moment. I used to use one to bubble through turpentine to thicken it into becoming terpene resin for making varnish for violins. Very hard to find genuine turpentine these days. Oh,you can buy a point of Grumbacher's artist's turpentine for $35.00. It's still genuine.


Old Chevy 6 cylinder engines had little scoops on the bottoms of their connecting rods. People would wear the engines out using them for dune buggies,and climbing steep dunes so the bearings would not all get oiled.
 

Ray C

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#37
I assumed you meant a Pond Pump. My wife has these ponds in the front with small pumps but I doubt they will suck-up oil.

Yes, the old Lister engines for example had a 4" rod screwed into the counterweight on the crankshaft. The rod was peened flat on the end and bent to a slight hook. It splashed oil all the way up to the piston connecting rod and piston skirt. They were stationary engines on level ground. Many of those old engines were known to run for 20 years of near continuous use w/o a rebuild. Only turned off when changing the oil. They were 3.5 horsepower and weighed about 1200lbs. -Extremely high service rating.

Ray


I deleted that,Ray. I forgot that an aquarium pump pumps AIR!! Senior moment. I used to use one to bubble through turpentine to thicken it into becoming terpene resin for making varnish for violins. Very hard to find genuine turpentine these days. Oh,you can buy a point of Grumbacher's artist's turpentine for $35.00. It's still genuine.


Old Chevy 6 cylinder engines had little scoops on the bottoms of their connecting rods. People would wear the engines out using them for dune buggies,and climbing steep dunes so the bearings would not all get oiled.
 

samthedog

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#38
I am pretty sure the effectiveness of splash lubrication depends upon the design of the headstock. It did not keep the low speed shaft bearings of our 16" Grizzly lathe at work from going bad. I have the brother of that lathe at home. It is still in very fine shape because it has been used a lot less. We made heavy axles and bearing boxes for many of the wagons and carriages in the museum on the lathe at work,running at slow speeds.
At low speeds I can understand the problem. I am not sure that the lathe running 2000 - 2500 rpm will suffer the same fate as the oil will be circulated and disturbed sufficiently to lubricate and cool. The best solution would be to open the headstock and have a peek.

Most of the higher quality lathes have channels or gutters that direct the oil to the various gears and bearings. The gears will fling enough oil to have a pretty consistent flow of oil. Splash lubrication is a little misleading as most people assume that the gears themselves have to create enough of a disturbance to direct oil droplets directly into the bearings.

The biggest benefit to a pressurized lubrication system is the aspect of filtration. I have not seen a splash lubricated headstock with filtering, which would suggest that the pressurized system would provide longer service life as less grit would find it's way into the bearings.

I know this is common knowledge to those who have worked on machines so I apologize if my posts look like I'm teaching people to "suck eggs".

Paul.
 

ARM

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#40
A couple thoughts...

Over the past 10 years (approximately) all the most serious flaws with lathes coming from Taiwan and China have been resolved. In the 1950's, Leblond, which is a very good lathe had problems with a feature called "Servo Shift". In time, the problem was resolved. It's the same thing going on here. Almost any lathe that is not a low end hobbyist machine is actually pretty good. The basic designs are good but quality control must be closely observed. Some brands of the same model are better than others and it depends if the factory was instructed to "make them real fast" or "pay attention to quality".

Most bench lathes have a top speed of about 1800 RPMs and some will go up to 2200. For bigger lathes, people usually work on bigger parts that have higher surface speeds and therefore 1800 RPM is usually fast enough. Most commercial chucks (3 Jaw and 4 Jaw) that are between 6" and 8" are only rated for speeds up to 2500 RPM. Collet chucks can spin much faster but can only hold smaller parts and they are more commonly found on smaller lathes that have higher speeds.

This is what the inside of most lathes looks like now (see below). You can see that most of the gears are under oil. Even the spindle bearings are half-way covered by oil. Nothing is going to go dry there. This is a Taiwanese gearbox and the design is very similar for many others -just bigger or smaller depending on the machine.


PM-1340GT-Headstock-Gears2-245x164.jpg

Here is a lathe from Taiwan. -Very high end machine. The spindle has 3 support bearings. It is not cheap but, I know these are available from dealers all over the world. I don't know what your financial budget is but, this machine is about $25,000 (USC). If you want more information about it let me know. Since this is a Hobby Machine website, I don't often discuss the high-end professional equipment but, I have some knowledge of what the best machines out there are and who makes them and what factory they come from. The machine here is as good as they come. It will go head-to-head with any big brand. The factory that makes these also makes the lathes for all the big brands -and this is their "house version". Top Of The Line Machine...

View attachment 61644

Ray
Hello RAY
Thanks again for this enlightening info.
We have our 14 x 40 for the heavier work which we are presently using with good results.
For the higher speeds we had planned on using our 5C COLLETS with a DRAW TUBE, more for the finishing, polishing and like U say, smaller work.
Regrettably we don't have an unlimited Budget, for now.
However, we think at around US $ 7K we would be able to get a decent quality machine.
Allow me to explain.
When we look at the numerous Grizzly ads for the approx sized Lathe in our Price/Size range, we envy the prices U Guys pay for Tooling. Let's do a comparison and look at our intended equivalent. Your 14x40 "Gunsmith's Lathe WITH ACCESSORIES retails for US $ 4'495.00. We reckon that this machine will deliver fairly good if not high ACCURACY, maybe not as good as Your Southbend or Precision mathews ???
Now compare my machine, ( pictures and details below ), costs US $ 4'990.00 - WITHOUT many ACCESSORIES.
The following Accessories had to be included at an extra US $ 2'141.00
"CE" Standardisation - including LEADSCREW COVER and CHUCK GUARD
FOLLOW REST
MICRO TYPE CARRIAGE STOP
QCTP WITH HOLDERS
5C HANDWHEEL DRAW TUBE
WORK LAMP
DRO (SINO) and
SURCHARGE FOR 3HP MOTOR from 2HP
The Total Price now loads up to just over US $ 7 Grand !!!
We reckon this figure should acquire us a fairly good machine. OK, it's definitely not in Your top bracket range, but it's almost 55% more than Your advertised GRIZZLY. And don't forget we want a smaller BED which is only 24" and not 40" !!!
Don't know if U agree with our line of thinking ???
However, we have supplied pics of the intended import and U can tell us whether this is a good buy.
Would be nice hearing from U.
kindest regards
aRM

1224BV~1340BV-2.jpg 1330_1440-1.jpg 1224BV~1340BV-1.jpg
 

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Ray C

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#41
ARM,


Hi...

Tell me the ideal size and speed specifications for the lathe you would like to get. Sounds like 12x24". Give me some clues about what kind of work you do on it. Also tell me if you want ultra high precision or if you want what I will call "standard and reasonable" precision.

Let me do some research for you. Also, the differences in price are all due to economic factors such as exchange rates and primarily, cost of shipping and import taxes/duties.


Ray
 

ARM

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#42
Yes,copies of the Hardinge HLVH are made in Taiwan. They are also very expensive. You get what you pay for in the end. Even at the high prices the HLVH clones sell for,I doubt you'd hear a professional machinist say they are really the equal of a USA HLVH. After all,the HLVH was selling for about $65,000.00 when they quit making them.
Hi George
Yup. We've heard about them clones.
If we had the bucks we would get us a refurbished rebuilt BABIN MACHINE TOOL with the whole tooty-fruity, DRO and the works.
Now that would be some buy !!!
aRM
 

ARM

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#43
Splash lubrication is sufficient even for higher speed machines. My Colchester Chipmaster has a top speed of 3000 rpm and has a splash lubricated headstock. The headstock oil I use is Shell Morlina S2 BL 10 (which is the recommended oil). This oil has a viscosity of 10 and is pretty much like water.

At these speeds, the quality of your lubricant, size of your spindle bearings and stability of the machine is put to the test. This also means that the chucks you use need to be rated for these speeds and then you start talking higher level equipment. Both my 3 and 4 jaw chucks are rated to 3000 rpm and would likely cost the price of a cheap hobby lathe on their own so it's not simply a case of increasing the speed of a machine.

You really need to invest in good oil and keep a very strict maintenance routine when you start talking higher speeds. Regular checks are necessary at each day and checking that chucks and work are secure become critical. A 4 kilogram chuck spinning at 3000 rpm becomes an unstoppable missile.

I don't think it would be a problem to increase the speed to 2500 rpm, provided the mass of the work you turn is not too high or unbalanced as this would put a lot more strain on the bearings.

Paul.
Hello PAUL
Good to hear from U. Much appreciate the important advices from a crucially different perspective.
Have noted the Quality of Lubricating Oil U specify.
We had recently been offered an EMCO MAXIMAT V10P in excellent condition which we rejected for that very same reason U stated. We were fearful of that THREADED CHUCK turning loose and also whilst running in reverse. ( We hear the growl from the older machinists ) It's just that we would never have been happy with that set up. We have therefor specifically looked for a CAMLOCK SPINDLE MOUNT and shied away from any threaded ones.
We hope the Manufacturer's can aptly cope with the increase in speed. Our application would be for quite light turnings, even COLLET mounted, and we also have some reservations on the ability of the spindle bearings lasting the distance.
Need to sass out the maker on this.
Thanks again
aRM
 

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#44
If that Babin machine guy is the same as the well known Ali Babin,you might be well advised to steer completely clear of him. Ali Babin seems to be a well known shyster.

I have heard that you must NEVER leave the Babin machinery place without EVERY little piece that you paid for. He never honors his promise to find missing things and send them to you. I don't want anything a guy like that has rebuilt,either,IF he is the same person as Ali Babin. I have heard many bad stories about Ali Babin.

P.S. I just found out FOR SURE that The machinery rebuilder in MASSACHUSETTS is PAUL BABIN. He is not related two ALI BABIN,the infamous other guy. Ali lives in Texas.
 
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Ray C

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#45
George,

Indirectly, you read my mind... Not only am I trying to find a machine suitable for ARM, I want to find a machine that's handled by a distributor that will actually deliver it to him.... When you deal with overseas shipments like this, things get lost sometimes -and sometimes, they are never delivered in the first place. You need to see Bill of Ladings up-front and you need to base your insurance coverage after you see the BoL.


Ray


If that Babin machine guy is the same as the well known Ali Babin,you might be well advised to steer completely clear of him. Ali Babin seems to be a well known shyster.
 

ARM

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#46
ARM,


Hi...

Tell me the ideal size and speed specifications for the lathe you would like to get. Sounds like 12x24". Give me some clues about what kind of work you do on it. Also tell me if you want ultra high precision or if you want what I will call "standard and reasonable" precision.

Let me do some research for you. Also, the differences in price are all due to economic factors such as exchange rates and primarily, cost of shipping and import taxes/duties.


Ray
Hi Ray
Man 'tis real cool on Your part to try and resolve our dilemma.
Here goes................
Bed Size definitely 12x24", No bed gap no problemo. All Dials Leadscrew etc in Metric. Speed to 2500/2800 RPM - even better with VARIABLE SPEED CONTROLLED INVERTER. Spindle Bore 40mm (1-9/16"), Spindle MT5 Taper, Must have 5C DRAW BAR TUBE, don't trust LEVER COLLET CLOSER - too many moving parts and expensive. With MT5 Spindle taper numerous Adaptors easily available for DRAW TUBE. Spindle Mounting D1-4 CAMLOCK - (easy to get good Chuck etc Tooling) Tailstock MT3, Prefer 3 HP motor in 380V 3 Phase. FOOT BRAKE - COMPULSORY !!! Machine must "weigh-IN at over 500 Kgs, thats about Your 1100 lbs. U know, the heavier the better. Include most ACCESSORIES, plus DRO - if not too expensive.

Presently, mostly Hobby Turning. Turned some 20/30 mm Cartridges and liked that. Working in S/S and Titanium, so need good Coolant system. Man, does Ti need a flint !!! Need to do Threading both internal and external in Metric mostly for Knife Hilts etc.

We cannot afford "ultra high precision" - Standard and reasonable will be good enough for us, for now. So long as "precision" is built into the machine to some degree, it will suffice.

All Prices are generally Quoted from the East in US Dollars. We only deal that way. To make things even easier, we will organise our own Shipping so long as the machine is from TAIWAN specifically. U gotta let us know if otherwise so's we can confirm accordingly. Import Duty and local VAT is all for our Account.

Trust this will give U a fair indication. Let me know if there's something omitted.
LORD BLESS
aRM

- - - Updated - - -

If that Babin machine guy is the same as the well known Ali Babin,you might be well advised to steer completely clear of him. Ali Babin seems to be a well known shyster.

I have heard that you must NEVER leave the Babin machinery place without EVERY little piece that you paid for. He never honors his promise to find missing things and send them to you. I don't want anything a guy like that has rebuilt,either,IF he is the same person as Ali Babin. I have heard many bad stories about Ali Babin.
Hey George, U Guys should know these dudes better than us.
We talking from eyeballing his window-dressing
Oh well, another bad deal bites the dust.
Sad to hear really.
aRM
 

ARM

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#47
RAY
Hi
Just a teeny-weeny reminder.
Do keep us posted on any progress
Will PM U
Thanks
aRM
 

Ray C

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#48
ARM,

I'm sorry for the late reply. I spent a couple days looking and I cannot find a machine that suits you -and then I just plain forgot to reply :)

You want a cross between a high precision HLV-type machine and a traditional lathe. These days, any new production machine with a 24" length immediately makes the rest of the requirements impossible to find.

The lathe you were looking at (or one like it) is about as close of a match as I can find...


Ray




RAY
Hi
Just a teeny-weeny reminder.
Do keep us posted on any progress
Will PM U
Thanks
aRM
 

core-oil

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#49
If money was "Just growing on trees for me" I would buy the guys in the model engineering society I go to a new lathe & milling machine + other goodies For myself, I would keep everything in my small shop, it is nice, However now for my shopping basket -- Things to play with, Nothing carried out to make money , that would be too boring I would build myself a nice purpose built heavy machine shop
Into this I would move my Holbrook & my vertical slotting machine
Out would go my milling machine
In would come (If one was available) a nice good condition old Cincinnati & a Milwaukie ( Kearney & Trecker) + a Bridgeport, & a nice Alexander die miller
a nice Colchester Major, & a Student lathe , a big Lang lathe, a Hendey tool room lathe (cone drive flat belt model --dead smooth!) + a Boxford lathe

A nice Cincinnati, a Hendey, & a British Butler shaping machine All three ( cannot have too many shapers!) + a big Butler travelling head shaping machine
a good big camel back drilling machine & a nice two foot radial drilling machine
A nice old American Dill slotting machine --Very hard to find) + a bigger Butler or an Ormerod slotting machine
Double column planing machine about six foot stroke
H.W. Ward 2a capstan lathe + similar Warner & Swasey
Small horizontal boring mill & a two foot vertical boring mill
Tool & cutter grinder, marking out table &loads of tooling

A side bay with a nice little iron & brass foundry & heat treatment oven & forge & anvil

O I almost forgot tea & coffee making equipment & place to lie back (horizontally if too tired to be bothered!) good heating , bridge crane & burglar alarm

Well guys I really am too old to be bothered , but it is nice to dream
 

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#51
I need to say that I have found out that Babin machinery in Massachusetts is PAUL BABIN,NO RELATION to the infamous ALI BABIN,who lives in Texas. Paul Babin is fine to do business. He just has the misfortune to share the same name as Ali.
 

The Liberal Arts Garage

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#52
All I can think of is money was no problem, I'd buy a new butt because mine has a crack in it and the way it's been dragging lately I'm pretty sure I've worn a hole in it. (okay, just kidding as it was in humor, albeit poor humor)

Actually if money were no problem, I'd start a non profit organization that took "at risk" people and teach them to be machinist, welders, electricians, carpenters, etc. etc. and take jobs on for cost. I'd have a large tract of land that would have a large central classroom/shop with housing for singles and families and make it mandatory that all persons attend multiple classes on varying disciplines including home economics, managing a budget, math and other technical lessons in order to become self sufficient and productive in society. They would receive a small wage and room and board, of course drug and alcohol testing would be mandatory as well as attending certain social functions. The only caveat would be once a person becomes self sufficient, I'd ask that they help teach others for a period of time and pay it forward!

Now if only I could win a few hundred million from the lottery, because I see no other way I would become that wealthy honestly!
. When you get
The Check, talk to the American Precision Museum; I had a big dream
When I hung around there years ago.........BLJHB
 

great white

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#53
I would start with a fully restored monarch 10EE in the new 1300 SqFt heated floor shop I guess....
 
D

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#54
Darn! left another "like" for a three year old posting!

I'd buy me a Mori Seki CNC lathe with all of the bells and whistles and a DMG mill with all of the bell and whistles.

Now what I would do with them, I'll figure that out next.
 

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#55
Hmmmmm... I think I would buy a new all-terrain reach forklift, at least 10,000 LB and more tooling for the machines I already have. Then add about 5000 SqFt to my shop.
 

John Hasler

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#56
I'd certainly build a new, large, heated shop. I'd also buy some decent instruments and lots of parts and materials. I'm not sure I'd buy any new machines, though. That would take the challenge of bootstrapping out of it.
 

middle.road

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#57
Complete climate control, radiant floor heat for the winter. 7500SQ. FT. Min.
3-phase power.
Spanking new Series II or proper clone.
A fully tooled Mori Seki CNC Machining center to complement Ken's Lathe of same.
(or eq.)
Big Arse air compressor.
Vehicle lift so that crawling under the vehicles is a thing of the past...
Set of decent tool boxes/storage right down the center. Perhaps Stanley Vidmars...
Man, the list can go on & on, limited only by one's imagination.
 

hermetic

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#58
All I can think of is money was no problem, I'd buy a new butt because mine has a crack in it and the way it's been dragging lately I'm pretty sure I've worn a hole in it. (okay, just kidding as it was in humor, albeit poor humor)

Actually if money were no problem, I'd start a non profit organization that took "at risk" people and teach them to be machinist, welders, electricians, carpenters, etc. etc. and take jobs on for cost. I'd have a large tract of land that would have a large central classroom/shop with housing for singles and families and make it mandatory that all persons attend multiple classes on varying disciplines including home economics, managing a budget, math and other technical lessons in order to become self sufficient and productive in society. They would receive a small wage and room and board, of course drug and alcohol testing would be mandatory as well as attending certain social functions. The only caveat would be once a person becomes self sufficient, I'd ask that they help teach others for a period of time and pay it forward!

Now if only I could win a few hundred million from the lottery, because I see no other way I would become that wealthy honestly!
Best answer so far!!!
 
T

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#59
A 1000'x500' garage
 

middle.road

Actively Learning...
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Apr 28, 2014
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#60
That's a d*mn fine idea! Setup a Voc Training center. Wish I'd thought of that instead of being narcissistic.
Isn't Mike Rowe doing something like that through on of his foundations?
 
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