Mill Search

[ACHiPo]

I've been looking for a mill off and on for the past few months to complement my Logan 816 lathe. My shop strategy to accommodate woodworking, metalworking, and auto repair is mobility--everything except my woodworking workbench is on wheels. The desire for mobility combined with the fact that I don't see myself machining anything too heavy or big to lift by myself makes me think a big bench machine or smaller Euro or 3/4 knee mills would be a good fit for my needs.

I was in Germany last week and saw Deckels on display at a museum and really liked the size and flexibility. Trying to find one for a reasonable price is another matter. Before checking out Deckels, I'd pretty much narrowed it down to a PM 833T bench mill or a PM 835 knee mill. Yesterday a colleague gave me a tour of their lab at work and they had a little Tormach. I hadn't considered a CNC, but the Tormach seemed pretty easy to use in manual mode as well as CNC-mode. At first I thought the Tormach was quite the bargain--then I started configuring a system the way I'd like it, and quickly the price climbed above $10k.

I've seen all the recommendations to "go as big as you can", but I want something that I can learn on, and can be pushed aside when I want to work on my car or build something out of wood.

Anyone else intrigued with CNC? I don't know CAD, so something like the Tormach that is intuitive and easy to use without CAD/CAM would be good. I've also read about Charter Oak making a decent CNC, still north of $10k, which seems like a lot of money for a hobby machine.

Any guidance or suggestions would be welcome.

 

[Mitch Alsup]

The real question is:
a) do you want a mill that "you make parts on",
or
b) do you want a mill that "makes parts by itself"

I wanted a), and after some investigation, and some talking with experienced machinists, I found out the knee is a very important feature of a mill used where you, the operator, are making parts, but not very important when the mill is making the parts.

Old saying: "The quill is for drilling, the knee is for milling."

There are a <small> number of knee mills between $3K and $4K which are evolutions of Rockwell and Clausing mill architecture, the 6×26 have a compressed area between the spindle and the bed compared to the 8×30 versions of the same architecture. These are missing a few of the features of the larger machines but are eminently useable. The smaller of them is in the 650 pound category, the later in the 1000 pound category. Neither is small enough to push "over into a corner" unless you mount it on casters.

 

[ezduzit]

You do not want light weight in a mill.

 

[richl]

Ram head and knee, and weighs more than 1000 lbs. Hard to tell what type of head the 835 has. That's what I would look for anyway

 

[ACHiPo]

You do not want light weight in a mill.

Agreed. The question is the definition of light. I don’t consider any of the mills I’m looking at “light”—all of the machines are well north of 1k lbs. They are not Bridgeport-heavy, I’ll grant you that.

 

[ACHiPo]

Ram head and knee, and weighs more than 1000 lbs. Hard to tell what type of head the 835 has. That's what I would look for anyway

The 835 has a made-in-Taiwan Bridgeport style ram head.

 

[richl]

If they are in the 1500lbs-2000lbs range and 1-2 hp, more is always better. That is a nice place, you can mill aluminium very easily, and harder metals being just a tad bit more conservative. I'm not sure if you have head nod capabilities, I don't on my mill, it is not crucial, it helps.
Out of the 2 mentioned, I'd get the pm835.

 

[ACHiPo]

The real question is:
a) do you want a mill that "you make parts on",
or
b) do you want a mill that "makes parts by itself"

I wanted a), and after some investigation, and some talking with experienced machinists, I found out the knee is a very important feature of a mill used where you, the operator, are making parts, but not very important when the mill is making the parts.

Old saying: "The quill is for drilling, the knee is for milling."

There are a <small> number of knee mills between $3K and $4K which are evolutions of Rockwell and Clausing mill architecture, the 6×26 have a compressed area between the spindle and the bed compared to the 8×30 versions of the same architecture. These are missing a few of the features of the larger machines but are eminently useable. The smaller of them is in the 650 pound category, the later in the 1000 pound category. Neither is small enough to push "over into a corner" unless you mount it on casters.

Mitch,
Thanks. I want to make parts. I never thought I’d want a CNC, but I’m reconsidering after seeing the Tormach in action. The demo of the Tormach impressed me with how easy it was to use manually. I don’t know CAD, and thought that was a requirement for CNC, but that doesn’t seem to be the case with Tormach’s software. There are a lot of Tormach haters on Practical Machinist, but the lack of used machines makes me think the people that have them like them.

I still like the look and size of the Euro machines— they seem perfect for my needs—but I’m definitely contemplating a CNC now.

How important is cooling/cutting fluid on milling machines—is it just for heavy cuts? The CNCs seem to be really messy with flood or mist cooling on most operations. I was kinda hoping to just use a little mineral spirits or alcohol for Al, and nothing for steel.

Evan

 

[T Bredehoft]

There are two reasons to consider CNC, 1) production and 2) playing. If you're only making one, it's generally quicker manually, as opposed to CNC. This does require DROs, and you do MNC, Manual Numeric Control. Spend your money on a mill, not on a mill with CNC. Unless you just want to play.

 

[ACHiPo]

There are two reasons to consider CNC, 1) production and 2) playing. If you're only making one, it's generally quicker manually, as opposed to CNC. This does require DROs, and you do MNC, Manual Numeric Control. Spend your money on a mill, not on a mill with CNC. Unless you just want to play.

Busted! The ‘play’ factor is definitely a thing. This is, after all a hobby, and I think I might like to learn CAD as long as I could make parts without knowing it.