Need a lot of advice on buying a VMC at auction, and experiences with Haas

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3Dogs

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I posted awhile back about wanting to buy a PM833-TV and converting it to CNC, but needing to convince my wife that it wouldn’t be too loud for her.
Well, we took a little trip to a very helpful PM833-TV owner, and he gave us a demo, which satisfied her.
But, on the way home she said “If you are going to do production, you should get a machine with a tool changer.” I told her that those were substantially bigger and more expensive, but she was OK with it.

So, now I’m like a dog who managed to catch the car...

I’m looking at Haas TM0,1,2 and 1P,2P or the Haas Mini Mill. I want a machine I can run on 1Phase 220V, and those are about all I can find.
Comparing the TMs and the Mini Mill, it seems the main differences are the TMs have much larger travel, and slower traversing, while the Mini Mills have less travel but much faster motion, and have integrated cooling. Space is a consideration, and I’m not sure I’ll ever need the large X-travel of the TMs, and the faster motion would be nice, so I’m leaning towards the Mini Mill - but I’d love to hear knowledgeable opinions.

There are several candidates on Bidspotter, but I have zero experience buying anything like this.
1) Is it safe to buy sight unseen, based only the the description?
2) How much wear do these machines get? If I buy a 15-year-old machine, what is the likelihood that the spindle/ballscrews/linear rails are OK?
3) How do I arrange to have it rigged and shipped and unloaded?
4) Should I go and see it before buying? I’m not sure what I could tell without actually running a part.
5) I hear that people don’t like the Mini Mill coolant sump. Is this a real problem?

Most of these machines are in the “Rust Belt.” That’s 2,000 miles away from me, so I’d have to be pretty sure of winning a bid to want to make that trip for inspection.

I’m sure I’m forgetting stuff, but that’s enough for now.
Any opinions are appreciated.
 
I bought and old industrial VMC - 1998, manufactured by Bridgeport in the UK. It did run, sort of - numerous little glitches. The biggest issue was it needed cleaning (chips packed in pretty well everywhere). That was about 5 years ago, it has been a very positive experience. Much of the machine is comprised of conventional industrial components, and limited parts available specifically for this machine. There is always the possibility that a critical component fails, then this is a boat anchor.

Anyway, the VMC experience was good enough that I just got a CNC lathe.

I have zero experience on converting a manual machine to CNC, but it sure seems like a lot of work. I can vouch that the full enclosure, flood coolant, 4th axis, tool changer and a decent number of tools are all really, really helpful. These other features could be added to a home built conversion, but again more work. Yes, it would be nice if it were also a 2 speed machine, through spindle coolant, a bigger tool changer, etc - the list never seems to stop. However, the coolant/cabinet, tool changer and 4th axis are things that I use a lot.

Another question you should consider. Are you prepared to hard code the machine? Are you intending to solid model, program tool paths and post process into the G-code? I am a long time manual machine guy, so I G-code directly (I could not find a very good post processor for DX32, the machine has very limited memory, and the G-code was not difficult to learn). If you are not prepared to write your own G-code, then buy
a machine that has software that is supported.

Answering your questions.
1. It is NOT safe to purchase a machine sight unseen - well unless you are prepared to pay a premium price. Going to the extreme, if you were to purchase a brand new machine, then it will most likely perform as expected (as advertised), no need to check it out

2. Wear. Yes, it is very likely that there is something wrong. Most industrial CNC machines are built tough, but if abused or huge hours - then you should expect that there will be something wrong. Support might be available, but if it is it will cost you. My experience is that with an old CNC you can get a lot of help on the various forums and talking to people - but fixing the machine will be up to you. Once again, it comes down to your abilities and what you are prepared to pay. I‘m guessing that since you are asking here on HM, then you want to do this for very little money (i.e. under $15k)?

3. Rigging, shipping & loading. Depends on how big it is. When I got my VMC (moved out of their shop, loaded, delivered 5 miles, unloaded into my shop) it was $2500 (the main cost was a forklift and low bed to haul it). This VMC is a machine with 1000mm travel, 4 axis, 20 tool changer, full cabinet, flood coolant, chip conveyor - weigh of 8000 lbs. Most of these machines are difficult to overhead lift, you need a forklift - a pretty big one because you can’t get close to the weight because of the cabinet). Strictly speaking, this is not a very big machine. I mostly work on pretty small parts, so it works for me (I would not want it any smaller). If you are looking at an old industrial machine, be prepared for a larger foot print and more weight than what you would expect from a similar size manual machine.

4. Yes, of course go see and run the machine. Again, it depends on your budget. I am a “bottom feeder”, I won’t pay much over the scrap metal price. So by definition, it will be broken, rusty and the seller will have very little time for me (definitely can’t run it). If you want to buy a good running machine and know that all is going to be wonderful, then expect to pay for it.

5. The mill sump? Yes, of course it is nasty (they all are). Mills make a million small needles, sumps are notoriously poorly maintained.

Single phase power? Yes of course, if you pay enough, then you can get anything you want. However, the more constants you pile on the harder it will be (nothing that can‘t be solved with more money). Conversion of single phase to 3 phase power is very straightforward. You will have a lot more machine options if you’ll accept 3 phase. I got my VMC pretty cheap, so I got a better phase converter, it cost more than the machine did. I had been using a commercially made rotary converter for 35 years, but it was too small. I bought a PhasePerfect, which runs the whole shop - it has been a great improvement (the other machines start better).

You have asked about Haas. Haas is a sought after brand (that name seems to double the price). In my area 15+ year old, well used, running Haas machines command a very good price. For a machine with 750-1000mm of X travel, it would be $60k to $75k (details depending). That does not include consideration for power or tooling. My machine was a lesser known brand, the DX32 controller is considered obsolete, it cost me $6k, came with 40 assorted BT40 tools, I spent about $3k on repairs, and $6k on additional tooling (which can go on forever). I spent quite a bit of time fixing and learning (I started out with zero CNC experience, but 35 years of hobby time on manual machines). I now have a very capable machine for $15k (the main spend was ~5 years ago, prices have likely gone up a bit). I am now getting steady revenue work for this machine (I’m still a hobbyist, I’m sort of retired , I make about $25k/yr).

Good luck in your search. David
 
Be careful of an older Haas. If it has an amp gauge on it Haas no longer will support repair of the electric boards. It is about anything over ten years old with Haas you are on your own if anything electrical goes out. There many be after market parts , but if your not an electric wiz find out if Haas will still support the unit. Used Haas is way over priced compared to other machines. Do some research before jumping in. Not an expert just what I have heard.
 
I would suggest staying Way from Hass as they don't want you to service your Machine they want their techs to do it.
Most of the replacement electronics has to be serviced by them.
I have experienced this first hand when a PCB was damaged could buy it but it had to be shipped to a local Haas factory outlet and installed by them.
Worse part is they had to turn on the PCB ! This was not an intelligent card this was a power distribution card!
I see some nice small mills from milltronics but my opinion is find an older Machine with a fanuc control.
Look At McKean Machinery website they have used Machinery you can see videos of it running and are great people to work with.

!
 
I use Bidspotter a lot.
Be very careful buying sight unseen. I have done it, but at the very least you can see the wear, condition and size of the machine. Riggers fees vary from $25.00 to as much as $10,000 that I have seen for equipment. And you have to get things on their terms. It is difficult sometimes lining up a roll off truck and working with the riggers also.
I am not trying to dissuade you, as I have got some dynamite deals.
As far as Hass, you could get a gem or a turd. I would definitely go see the machine. Sometimes the company has spare parts that just get mixed in the auction. You can ask while you are there so you can bid appropriately.
My 3 cents advice
Martin
 
IMHO, I think HAAS is the way to go for you. Like said got to buy less than 10 years old so the price will be up there. There are a zillion how to repair these on you tube AND HAAS techs are available if you can't get it. Not true of many other makes.

If you got the room used VF2s go for less than used minis.

I'd pay somebody to look the machine over in your case. It is huge to ask to see a part run. Have somebody write up a program to make an outside square, followed by an outside circle just a bit higher, the an inside circle followed by an inside square. Do the inside work with a 1/4 and the outside with a 1/2 endmill. Bring your own tooling and watch them get set up. measure the part for tolerance and surface finish.
 
If you are going into production that sounds like you are building a business? If so, maybe leasing a new machine is an option, you can then write 100% off your taxes. If you buy, even used you can only write off the depreciation.
 
Eddyde said:
If you are going into production that sounds like you are building a business? If so, maybe leasing a new machine is an option, you can then write 100% off your taxes. If you buy, even used you can only write off the depreciation.
Click to expand...
i would disagree, you can write any capital expense with section 179. Downside is you need to be showing a profit to write it off against. Of course if You have no profit you are not paying taxes anyway.

I have been in business 40 years now. I do a quick'n'dirty tax run in December. If income looks too high, I buy something and section 179 it. Best way to income average there is.

income tax section 179 - Google Search

www.google.com
 
At the moment, I want the machine to make parts for a product that my partner and I sell. I might expand that to do contract machining in the future, but that isn’t my primary focus. I’m also interested in it purely from a hobby perspective.

(So, I don’t need to have it making money from, day 1 - I can take my time learning to use it, and to repair it if necessary)
 
Karl_T said:
i would disagree, you can write any capital expense with section 179. Downside is you need to be showing a profit to write it off against. Of course if You have no profit you are not paying taxes anyway.

I have been in business 40 years now. I do a quick'n'dirty tax run in December. If income looks too high, I buy something and section 179 it. Best way to income average there is.

income tax section 179 - Google Search

www.google.com
Click to expand...
Well that's how my accountant explained it, perhaps he was over simplifying.
 
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