Need help planning a vertical mill purchase

C

Cason

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Hey guys,

I am planning on purchasing a vertical mill with my return in January. I am considering a few options such as: hunting down a deal in a Bridgeport, going with a new PM machine, hitting up some auctions and finding something that way.

My question regards power needed and durability of machine.

I really wish I had heard about Precision Matthews before I purchased my Logan. Not to say I regret my Logan purchase, as I am QUITE happy with it being my first lathe, I just think I would have given PM a try instead. I hear great things about these machines and Matt himself. With that said, which VM of his would you suggest for high volume drilling, milling, and beveling up to 1.5" 1018 flats? I can't imagine I would ever need to process harder/thicker material than this on the mill. I would like to keep the cost to around 3000 total. Maybe a bit higher.

Beside PM, what other brands should I look for for my needs and budget?

I am just not very familiar with VM's and value you guys' opinion. I appreciate any advice given!

Cason
 
Cason,
I think the PM's are a great buy and a real good bang for the buck. You should keep in mind that you are buying a naked machine though and will need tooling immediately. I would opt for the 932 or the 30vl and invest the rest in entry level mid quality tooling. I would also look carefully at getting an indexing or rotary table some time pretty soon post purchase. The tooling and a decent rotary table should finish off you budget pretty well. Unfortunately the machine is actually the inexpensive part of the whole affair, tooling and work holding will be an ongoing investment for some time to come. There are several online suppliers who can ease that sting a pretty fair bit, but you are the one who will have to be persistent and ferret out the good deals when they come. I missed a good deal on Ebay due to indecision. I had found an index able set of 1/2 tooling for 26 dollars and free shipping. By the time I did the research on replacement bits I had missed it and the cheapest I have found since is 39 dollars, so if you snooze you will lose, but you also have to be careful and not be in such a big hurry that you waste money either. And don't forget a couple or three good pairs of safety glasses and possibly a Uvex 9400 series face shield. I would also invest in a good set of tig gloves only to be worn when installing and removing bits and parts to protect you from cuts. The edges and the chips are razor sharp and can really pile up quickly so a good brush and a slot cleaner would also be a good addition to consider too. Hope this helps and welcome to the group and the new addiction.

Bob
 
Cason said:
Hey guys,

I am planning on purchasing a vertical mill with my return in January. I am considering a few options such as: hunting down a deal in a Bridgeport, going with a new PM machine, hitting up some auctions and finding something that way.

My question regards power needed and durability of machine.

I really wish I had heard about Precision Matthews before I purchased my Logan. Not to say I regret my Logan purchase, as I am QUITE happy with it being my first lathe, I just think I would have given PM a try instead. I hear great things about these machines and Matt himself. With that said, which VM of his would you suggest for high volume drilling, milling, and beveling up to 1.5" 1018 flats? I can't imagine I would ever need to process harder/thicker material than this on the mill. I would like to keep the cost to around 3000 total. Maybe a bit higher.

Beside PM, what other brands should I look for for my needs and budget?

I am just not very familiar with VM's and value you guys' opinion. I appreciate any advice given!

Cason
Click to expand...


Carson, larry Smith here. Buy the biggest and best you can afford. Bridgeports, always a classic. and their clones. Brand I have no idea. These folks could give you good recommendations. Kudos to the post for save some back for tooling. A good vise, and small super spacer a real help. Boring head a must. Support tooling you can make. Fly cutters, Slitter holders. Table stops. A cheap clamp set. Try to stay with a R-8 shank tooling. Integral endmill holders R-8 shank a real plus. I posted Machinist set for sale that shows a bunch of this tooling. Virtually all the small tooling you would need for Mill and lathe. It will give you an idea. Hope this helps. Stay in touch.
 
Hi...

If you decide to pursue a Precision Matthews machine, the 932 is the way to go. It has power table and Z which is really nice to have but, it does not have variable speed (but you can add that yourself with a VFD conversion). A fully "tricked-out" 932 will still be under $3000 (including delivery).

The PM 45 is also available but it's going to be the basis for the CNC machines because, the manufacturer has the ability to add variable speed to that unit. Other than that, the units are almost completely identical...



EDIT: BTW, Matt happens to have some 935's in stock right now -and he hates when things are in stock :)

Additional EDIT: the 932 and PM 45 have very similar castings but initially had different head gears. The 932 head gears were not as good but, the PM 932 machines are now modified and have the same gears and gear system as the PM 45. This not not true of other vendors who sell machines similar to the 932.


Ray
 
Forgot to mention... Almost all mills have between a 1 and 2 horsepower motor so you'll need a 15 or 20 Amp 220 line. Most "old iron" are three phase -but that's not a problem since you can power it with a VFD which cost about $200. The newer machines can be run on 220 single phase.

One thing to also take into consideration is size and weight. A BP is on the order of 2000 to 2500 lbs and something like the 932 is in the 1300lb range. -Big difference when it comes to moving it... Also, check in with the guys in the machine rebuilding section so you know what to look for in terms of wear. I originally wanted a BP but it takes-up a lot more space and the ones I saw were around 2 grand and most needed bearings and work on the ways. Bearings alone are $600 for the replacements. I also wasn't keen on changing belts to change speed but I believe some of the BP clones have gearboxes instead of belts.


Ray
 
Be patient. Watch for a local deal on c/l or eBay on a used, heavy duty machine with tooling. My Logan 12"x35" lathe and Index Super 55 mill cost $2k with boxes of tooling.
 
Just want to point-out, there is no Right or Wrong in the matter of Old vs New or Big vs Medium. Its all a matter of what is best for you and your individual circumstances. I've personally been on both sides of the coin and after over a year being a moderator here and also 3 years on a different list, I've seen it all. I've also seen a LOT of people get in way over their heads -especially when folks get the notion in their head that "Massive Iron" is cool. -After all, if just enough is just right then, too much is even better.

Just not long ago, I got a PM from a new member here (who had only a few posts) who bought a bridgeport (or maybe it was a clone, I don't remember) for about $1000. He spent another $300 for a rental truck and almost had a bad experience getting it loaded. After driving 600 miles, he got it home and struggled like heck (spending a couple hundred more to rent jacks) to get it in the garage. Then he discovered it needed bearings, a motor and the ways were swayed like a camel's back. It also came with a box of "Goodies" and he noticed all the R8 taper tools had a similar groove/scratch on them. Then he realized the spindle was butchered-up on the inside... He lived within 60 miles of me and asked if I could help him rebuild the machine. As much as I'd like to help the guy, I'm not in a postition to offer that kind of assistance. He was totally annoyed with the whole business of shop work from this experience and said he was pulling the plug and going into RC planes instead...
I think there are lot more stories out there like this than people are willing to admit.

I had an older lathe that looked dirty but otherwise seemed OK and was functional. I spent 350 bucks for it and over the next year, at least 2 times more in various replacement parts and I spent a great deal of time making new parts and modifications. It was good learning experience but at the end of the day, it was still a lathe whose better days were long behind it. It's now very happy serving a guy and his wife who do a lot with the Boy Scouts and they do wood and aluminum projects that do not require significant precision. I also gave them a box of "goodies" -most of which were in the same condition as the lathe but, there were a couple live centers and drill chucks worth about 50 bucks all total that were in good shape.

I personally have one sucess story which is my 100 year old B&S surface grinder. It's entire history was known and it was professionally rebuilt about 2 years before it was put out of service. It sat in a garage for 6 years and I got it $500. It works fine.

With a few years experience under my belt, when I was last looking for a lathe, I searched for a year. -And with a slighlty more trained eye, could not find anything which I could honestly say was a good deal.

The point being here, there are up-sides and down-sides... As a Moderator here, I feel obligated to point-out both sides -and sprinkle it with real facts. I also read many (if not most) of the posts here and I know "who is who" and what they are capable of and I try to guide them appropriately. Not long ago, fellow member "shawn" spotted some big iron and it looked good. I don't know shawn but, I can tell he knows the ropes and has a handle on things -and only in that case (and a few others) I came right out and said "jump on it".

Also, I've searched new equipment over high-and low and researched it in ways (using resources not available to most people) ad-infinitum. It's pretty clear when people are looking for new-production machines, I recommend the Precision Matthews line. I've also stated why... He sells hundreds of machines a year -with no rejects. -none!


Anyhow... back to work for me...


Ray
 
I'd recommend thinking long and hard about how much the machine weighs, and if you are willing to deal with the consequences of the weight. I had an old 2/3 sized knee mill, and I got rid of it, because it would be a royal pain to move at close to 1900 lbs. even if I broke it all the way down to individual components the main casting was still like 800 lbs. I'd love a BP, but moving one is a royal pain, unless you have a good sized trailer & pick-up truck. When I got my old mill I had to rent a 26 foot moving truck as it was the only thing I could find that had a 3000lb lift gate.
 
I would agree a used Bridgeport clone would be a good choice. Just make sure it isn't worn out. Another source to look at would be Craigs List - just be careful and deal face to face and cash and you can do fine there - search the local and surrounding areas frequently, because good deals pop up and get snapped up quick. Used equipment dealers might also be an option.
 
Ray C said:
Just want to point-out, there is no Right or Wrong in the matter of Old vs New or Big vs Medium. Its all a matter of what is best for you and your individual circumstances. I've personally been on both sides of the coin and after over a year being a moderator here and also 3 years on a different list, I've seen it all. I've also seen a LOT of people get in way over their heads -especially when folks get the notion in their head that "Massive Iron" is cool. -After all, if just enough is just right then, too much is even better.

Just not long ago, I got a PM from a new member here (who had only a few posts) who bought a bridgeport (or maybe it was a clone, I don't remember) for about $1000. He spent another $300 for a rental truck and almost had a bad experience getting it loaded. After driving 600 miles, he got it home and struggled like heck (spending a couple hundred more to rent jacks) to get it in the garage. Then he discovered it needed bearings, a motor and the ways were swayed like a camel's back. It also came with a box of "Goodies" and he noticed all the R8 taper tools had a similar groove/scratch on them. Then he realized the spindle was butchered-up on the inside... He lived within 60 miles of me and asked if I could help him rebuild the machine. As much as I'd like to help the guy, I'm not in a postition to offer that kind of assistance. He was totally annoyed with the whole business of shop work from this experience and said he was pulling the plug and going into RC planes instead...
I think there are lot more stories out there like this than people are willing to admit.

I had an older lathe that looked dirty but otherwise seemed OK and was functional. I spent 350 bucks for it and over the next year, at least 2 times more in various replacement parts and I spent a great deal of time making new parts and modifications. It was good learning experience but at the end of the day, it was still a lathe whose better days were long behind it. It's now very happy serving a guy and his wife who do a lot with the Boy Scouts and they do wood and aluminum projects that do not require significant precision. I also gave them a box of "goodies" -most of which were in the same condition as the lathe but, there were a couple live centers and drill chucks worth about 50 bucks all total that were in good shape.

I personally have one sucess story which is my 100 year old B&S surface grinder. It's entire history was known and it was professionally rebuilt about 2 years before it was put out of service. It sat in a garage for 6 years and I got it $500. It works fine.

With a few years experience under my belt, when I was last looking for a lathe, I searched for a year. -And with a slighlty more trained eye, could not find anything which I could honestly say was a good deal.

The point being here, there are up-sides and down-sides... As a Moderator here, I feel obligated to point-out both sides -and sprinkle it with real facts. I also read many (if not most) of the posts here and I know "who is who" and what they are capable of and I try to guide them appropriately. Not long ago, fellow member "shawn" spotted some big iron and it looked good. I don't know shawn but, I can tell he knows the ropes and has a handle on things -and only in that case (and a few others) I came right out and said "jump on it".

Also, I've searched new equipment over high-and low and researched it in ways (using resources not available to most people) ad-infinitum. It's pretty clear when people are looking for new-production machines, I recommend the Precision Matthews line. I've also stated why... He sells hundreds of machines a year -with no rejects. -none!


Anyhow... back to work for me...


Ray
Click to expand...

My $0.02:

Ray is giving out some excellent advise. I purchased a Monarch 10EE lathe several months ago. It may end up being a good thing, but at this time I can't say because I'm stuck. I ran the discretionary money account dry and it's going to take another $700 or so to buy the rotary phase converter needed to even start to get the lathe running. It appears that the ways and saddle are in OK condition, but I won't be able to confirm that until the power issues are sorted out. In the mean time, I'm getting nothing done in my shop.

Moving a piece of equipment of this weight was a real eye opener. I've moved some large, heavy objects before. But the top-heavy weight distribution of machine tools makes it a different ball game.

If everything works out, I'll have a great piece of machinery at a reasonable price. If not, this could be throwing money into a black hole.

Best wishes what ever you decide to do.

Walt
 
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