RF 30 run out appears under power - steady when idling down.

dansawyer

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The system is an older RF 30; I have had it about a year. I do not know its previous usage.
I have placed a short piece of drill rod in an R8 collett and inserted it the spindle. I have put a tenth reading dial indicator in the vice. When the spindle is rotated by hand the dial indicator shows a tenth variation. It is very smooth and consistent.
Under power at 900 rpm the dial indicator shows about 2 thou of runout. However when the power is turned off and the system is idling down the indicator immediately smooths out. It barely moves.
The system appears to have a small vibration when under power.
I can speculate this behavior is not normal; however I can't diagnose it.
Thanks Dan
 
Dan, there are multiple interfaces involved here so the run out you are seeing tells you essentially nothing, nor does it indicate a problem. And if you do have a problem, your set up does not tell you where it is coming from.

If you had a precision R8 test bar that has a calibrated run out when torqued to a specific value then that might tell you something when checking static run out with it but under power, all bets are off.

As it is now, you have the interface between the R8 collet and the spindle, the R8 collet and the drill rod and the drill rod may or may not be round or straight. In addition, the run out on an R8 collet can vary with the torque used to tighten it. Then there is the effect of the dial indicator attempting to provide a precision measurement on a moving object, something it is not designed to do.

Attempting to assess concentricity is a complicated thing. Concentricity is evaluating how much rotational variation a thing has around a central datum or true center point. Accurately measuring concentricity is a complex process that requires equipment not typically found in a hobby shop. The best most of us can do is to assess static run out and that is done on each individual component in the chain so that the effect of each component is known. Then you will know if there is an actual issue, you will know its severity and you will know which component is causing it.
 
I have decided to proceed with a quill / spindle refirb. There are references to multiple bearings specs in the posts. One reference is to a pair:
FAG 7206-B-XL-2RS-TVP
FAG 7207-B-XL-2RS-TVP

The second reference is to these:
Nachi E 30206J A
KOYO H-Cap 30207JR

Is there a preferred set? Are there other alternatives?
 
Okay, now your posts are starting to make sense. In your OP, you were trying to determine if you had a run out problem severe enough to warrant a bearing change. Your method as you laid it out will not give you the information you seek. It is possible you have a bearing issue but it is also possible that the bearings are okay; you need to assess them.

This type of machine has two sets of bearings: the quill bearings that support the spindle directly and the drive sleeve bearings that support the drive sleeve that actually turns the spindle. The drive sleeve is driven by the pulley and transmits rotational power to turn the spindle. You need to assess both.

First, clean the inside of the spindle. Use alcohol and wipe it until your cloth or towel comes out clean, then dry it and don't touch it with your fingers. Clean your DTI (not a dial indicator) tip with alcohol and don't touch it thereafter. Mount the DTI in a sturdy indicator holder and position the tip of the DTI inside the spindle. Ideally, mount the tip on the back wall so you can see it. Preload the DTI by about 0.0015" and zero the dial. Now make a mark with a Sharpie on the front of the spindle and the quill itself. The mark on the spindle will rotate as you turn it and the mark on the quill will be a reference that does not move. When the two marks line up, that is your start and end point.

You will assess the spindle run out first. Be sure you've preloaded the DTI and the dial is at zero. Also be sure your Sharpie marks are aligned. Now slowly rotate the spindle by hand by turning the top front pulley by hand and make one complete revolution so your Sharpie marks align again. The DTI should return to zero. If it does, you can rely on the set up; if it does not then the set up is not reliable. In most cases, this is because the indicator stand is not solid. Either lock it down tighter or get a stand that is more rigid. If the DTI returns to zero, make a second rotation but slower and note any deviation from zero. There will usually be a high and a low point. Try to mark where these deviations are and note their magnitude. Your TIR will be the high value minus the low value. Return to your original alignment marks and make sure your DTI again reads zero. Make one more rotation and make sure the two deviations you saw before are in the same place and of the same magnitude. If they repeat then that is your spindle TIR and you can rely on it. Write it down.

Now you can assess the drive sleeve bearings by simply pushing back and forth on the pulley at the top of the spindle. As you do this, watch the DTI. It will deflect as you move the pulley so just note the magnitude and that is your drive sleeve run out.

For spindle bearings, acceptable TIR is in the neighborhood of 0.0002" or less. If it is more then a bearing change may be in order. Stock Chinese bearings will often run out more than 0.0002" when new so its a judgement call. If you do change them, replace them with higher quality bearings. You can go with ABEC 3 tapered roller bearings or higher. If you prefer, you can go with precision class angular contact bearings; the FAG bearings you listed are P5 bearings and are equivalent to ABEC 5 bearings so they are much more accurate than the spindle itself.

Drive sleeve bearings are not accuracy rated. They are simple radial bearings. If you replace them, get some deep groove bearings; they are built to take both radial and axial loads and will be more accurate in this application. Nachi makes good ones.

Bottom line: assess your run out properly to decide if there actually is a problem and how big a problem it really is. Then decide if a bearing change is necessary. If it is, pick good bearings so they last a long time and can sustain the loads your mill will see.
 
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Thank you. I will be able to follow up on this early next week.
I was surprised there was no side force applied to the spindle. Did I miss understand?
Thank you again. Dan
 
No, no force. You are attempting to determine the accuracy of the spindle under controlled conditions. You will find that when a bearing is shot, it will move a great deal using just this procedure. By move, I mean there will be a significant difference between the high and low readings. You cannot spot this under power because the movement obscures it and because the indicator cannot resolve it. When the bearings are tight and accurate, run out will be very, very low and you will be able to see it.

Once you know what the spindle run out is, evaluate everything you want to assess the same way. Put a collet in the spindle and evaluate the run out of the collet, then put an accurate rod in there and evaluate that. You will know how much run out the collet adds and how accurately it holds a tool.

Without very specialized equipment, assessing run out under power tells you nothing of value.
 
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Sorry to jump in on this thread. Is a short piece of O1 drill rod sufficiently straight?


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Depends, David. Drill rod is centerless ground and some rod is really accurate and others are not as accurate. Drill rod usually has to fall inside very tight tolerances but straightness is not as well controlled to my knowledge.

When assessing the run out of a machine, I would not use drill rod. I would use a ground and hardened precision dowel pin or the shank of a high quality end mill. I usually prefer to use a dowel pin but I have also used the shank of a Niagara Cutter or Keo end mill with good results. Because a DTI requires very little force to deflect the tip, even a small 1/4" or 3/8" end mill or dowel pin will be sufficient.
 
Quick up date:
First as suggested the interior of the spindle was cleaned with solvent. That made a significant difference in the readings. Both the direct spindle readings and the readings from the collett/drill rod improved. There is an issue with one of the ER colletts, however given the above this is likely the collett itself.
Finally a new drive belt was installed. The vibration was due to the belt.
Together these resolved the concerns. The measurements are definitely less that .0002. I have not removed the spindle to inspect the bearings. That can definitely be delayed for the near future.
Thank you all for your pointers.
Dan
 
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