The current state of machining education

[hdskip]

I posted this on another forum earlier today. I'm not sure this is the right place but here goes anyway. I'll not be offended if it is moved to a better spot.



First let me say that I'm a high school precision machining Instructor. I've been teaching for 20 years. I worked in industry for 24 years before that. Several things : Vocational education is dead, It's now career and technical education( A rose by any other name is still a rose). Much of this career education is now directed at the Community College level. That's where all the $$$$$$ is going.( college education). High school machining in Virginia has dwindled to about 12 programs state wide. Almost all of these programs seem to be pretty successful. By successful I mean EMPLOYMENT. My program has about a 90% placement rate. We are in a county which has a large number of manufacturing companies, both large and small. We can't recruit enough students to supply the demand. Sadly most parents want their kids to be doctors, lawyers and Indian chiefs. The technical education programs have taken it on the chin for many years. There seems to be a resurgence but when it all shakes out, it will have a different look than we are used to seeing. Most technical schools can use all the volunteer help they can get. This includes donation of excess supplies from individuals and industry as well as time from those with machining experience. I don't know of an instructor that would turn down a visit from a machinist to at least talk to his students about what happens in a real work place.
The apprenticeship program is alive and well in my state. It's been effective since ancient history. The educators of this country think you can learn everything in school. Nothing could be further from the truth. No machining instructor will ever claim to turn out a machinist. That distinction only comes from on the job experience over many thousands of hours (7000 in my state). I have my students for 720 hours. They are very much above off the street help but by no means machinists.
OK, my rant is over thanks for listening. I appreciate it.
Gary ( Educating the youth of America )

 

[chips&more]

Back in the day when I could write my name in the snow. And when Middle schools were called Jr. High Schools. And when Jr. and high schools had metal and wood shops (they don’t now in my state, to my knowledge). I made the below cannon on my first year out of grammar school. I can still remember all the great machines that Jr. High School had. We even did sand cast and poured aluminum, can you believe it! In looking back, I suppose there was a huge safety risk for kids at that age running the machines and all. But at the High School age maybe the kids had a little more savvy. Why did the shops all go away in our State? I have no idea, I think it’s a mistake. Everybody wants to be White Collar and buy import crap. I through ranting too.

 

[drs23]

Gary,

This POV has been espoused time and again. We're going to be in a bad place when the time comes that we NEED those skilled craftsmen. I've got a friend that's been a Class A (and I don't know how many A's to put behind it) for 40+ years. I've been dabbling at running a lathe for a little over a year and a vertical mill for about half that time. He assures me I can walk into the shop he works in and go to work for 1/2 scale, day one. That's pathetic because I dun't know squat. I can usually make a part come out on size and sometimes it's even pretty but I'm by no means a "Machinist". Far from it. The guys here just amaze me. It takes me way too long. I tell him that I wouldn't make 'til dinner time the first day and he assures me the guys that the shop owner has to choose from that I'd be up the scale in "no time". That's bad.

I hope we never really find out what the cost of "off shoring" everything is going to be but my common sense tells me, it's coming.

I feel sorry for our kids and grand kids.

Sorry for the rant, just an exposed nerve I reckon.

 

[Andre]

Back in the day when I could write my name in the snow. And when Middle schools were called Jr. High Schools. And when Jr. and high schools had metal and wood shops (they don’t now in my state, to my knowledge). I made the below cannon on my first year out of grammar school. I can still remember all the great machines that Jr. High School had. We even did sand cast and poured aluminum, can you believe it! In looking back, I suppose there was a huge safety risk for kids at that age running the machines and all. But at the High School age maybe the kids had a little more savvy. Why did the shops all go away in our State? I have no idea, I think it’s a mistake. Everybody wants to be White Collar and buy import crap. I through ranting too.

View attachment 84052

You built CANNONS in school? Come to New York buddy!

 

[Andre]

Hdskip, I have a question for you,

Since you have been doing this officially for so long, I think you'd be the guy to ask. Could somebody (me in this case) become proficient enough to get a good job and career by watching youtube videos, reading forums, and trial and error making my own projects? People like Oxtool, Mrpete, Keith Fenner, and a plethora of others share countless amount of information, tips, tricks, and show themselves making projects, some of which are fairly involved. Or would it be better to go to an actual machining trade school?

 

[chuckorlando]

I wish I could say the same thing for our state. I can say from my own experience our machine schooling sucks. Our machine prog was missing a teacher for a year. Leaving students all messed up. Then we got a great teacher for a year, part time. Now he is gone. No teacher to speak of now. So I began looking for a place willing to apprentice or train or what ever they want to call it. Everyone wants 5+yrs experience or some type of cert from school. So I started looking in all the surrounding counties. I got two thats 3hr drive and one thats 1hr. So I contact them. It's an apprenticeship deal. Great! Sign up, get a list of comps to call to get a job. Half did not even know what I was talking about and all but one from the other half had nothing. The other one took another guy over me cause it's such a long drive for me :nuts: Needless to say, I am extremely frustrated with the industry and the education system. I was willing to throw my business of 10yrs away for much less pay just for a Journeyman title and I cant find a place to even let me pay to learn.

This makes me mad as hell just typing it

 

[pineyfolks]

You built CANNONS in school? Come to New York buddy!

When I was in school we could take our shotgun with us to go hunting after school all we did was get permission the day before and drop it off in the office in the morning and pick it up for the bus ride to our friends house after school. Needless to say if you did something wrong you had to answer to your DAD.

 

[12bolts]

Andre,
The quality that you produce now puts you in a class above most others. However, any prospective employer will want/need to see formal educational qualifications. I am not familiar with the US side of entering an apprenticeship and coming out the other side as a tradesman, but here in Australia you would be required to complete year 10 (bare minimum) employers would look more favorably on year 11 or 12 high school, then a 4 year apprenticeship. Unfortunately although you certainly have the ability, you dont have the experience for an employer to trust. I have no doubt you could make it on your own in your own shop but without a rich uncle that aint gonna happen.
By all means watch and learn as much as you can online but if the opportunity presents itself for hands on for you to prove yourself to someone else, then grab it!
My situation, I hated school and all I wanted to do was get out and work with my hands. I was lucky, I grew up in an industrial area and apprenticeships were there for the asking, (35 years ago when the government and industry were still looking to the future) but now with jobs at a premium.......If you dont like school and want to get out then perhaps a local machine shop may be an option for you, But be prepared to start at the bottom. Rock bottom! Sweeping up and cleaning. If you are keen then the boss will give you an opportunity to show him what you can do and if he's a stand up guy then he will offer you an apprenticeship. Military service might be an option. The Australian Defence Force offers apprenticeships.

Cheers Phil

 

[JimDawson]

As I see it, most of the employers today are looking for button pushers, not machinists, at least around here. About all the vocational machine tech courses teach in this area is CNC operation. Boeing and other aerospace shops are the norm. There are a few places that still hire tool & die makers to support their production, but most of them are 50+ years old, and there are no replacements coming up through the ranks. The manager of the shop that I bought my surface grinder from told me that he was the only person there that even knew how to run it, and they had about 50 workers there. They were all button pushers. About the only shops the hire manual machinists are the various repair shops, and most of the guys there are older also.


I did a job at a machinery manufacturer in Tennessee, they had some amazing CNC equipment and the operators did their own setups and program editing so I will call them machinists. But, to do the work that did not lend it’s self to CNC work, they had to bring in a 70 year old machinist to do the work because nobody else there knew how to do it. He and I got along great.


Much like Andre, I was a natural at machining. When I started out, I could walk up to a machine and just know how to run it and could turn out acceptable parts. Some of us are just wired that way, but most have to be trained in both school and on the job. The key here is wanting to be trained, and that is where the system is breaking down. The young folks are being told that the only way to get ahead today is to get a university degree rather than being encouraged to even consider the trades. We can’t all be white collar workers.

 

[middle.road]

I wish I could say the same thing for our state...........

Unfortunately I don't believe that FLA is going to have much going machining wise since the cut backs with NASA.
You'd probably have to bite it and move to a state that would have more manufacturing. Easier said than done.

I started in the Chicago suburbs 40 years ago, then down to TX, then out to CA and then back to IL and
have been in TN for the past 14 years. I never made it into the heart of the 'Rust Belt' though.
Been in heavy industrial, automotive suppliers, electronics, R&D and defense during the reagan boom.
I've seen a lot of shops both large and small and in the current climate I don't really see how we're going to maintain
our industrial edge.
When was the last time anyone here heard the title 'Tool & Die Maker'? or any reference to that level of skill?
Anyone remember the classing system or labeling of Machinist?
The man who hired me and taught me Tool Engineering all those years ago thought that it would always be a skill
that would be in demand. He was concerned then that a lot of the apprenticeship programs had disappeared and wanted
to pass on what he and his Tool & Die Makers knew. Tool Engineering faded away also...


_Dan