The current state of machining education

Very few guys who simply run out in the garage and start learning, will ever meet the level for which a machinist resides. Hell very few who work in the industry will be a machinist. Less and less everyday with button pushers. IMO a cnc opp should be able to do the same job manually. Even if he has never used a manual machine, he will understand the process to part. Yes the machine does the work and a button pusher can run the prog, but a machinist had to draw the part, write the cutter path, simulate it, and change the code to maximize the machines time. In order to do this, you need to understand the fundamentals of making that part. What tool to use, doc, feed, rpm, what and when to drill, steps, off sets, compensation, right down to cutter wear. I dont believe machinist are going any place. In fact I would bet a dollar to a donut we will see a demand rise in the market over the next 10yrs. There are alot of factors at play here if your one for researching and reading. Most machine jobs will never be as high tech as we like to dream. Sure the tech is there and it's cheaper, but when a job shop has 20k to spend on a new mill or a robot arm, the mill will win everytime. That kinda stuff is reserved for large production shops that run on repeat. Aint no body spending 2 million bucks to automate the production of rzr doors that sale 2 sets a month for 2yrs then the design changes. With exception of the maker of the rzr it's self, Polaris
 
I'm currently making parts for a press manufacturer in my 2 car garage on manual machines. They sell one press a week, more or less. These are large expensive machines. Most of the parts are made on manual machines. Many of the parts have to be ground to tolerances of +- .0002" also on manual grinding machines. For high production, CNC is the way to go, but IMO , manual machinists will always be required. Manual machinists are getting to be very hard to find to. It takes years of in the job experience to become a master. I'm no where near being a master. I learn everyday.
 
I meant to offend no one by my comment about Indian chiefs. It is a term I've heard in my area of the country all my life. There is nothing derogatory about it. It simply means those of seemingly importance. A high rank in society if you will. I'm sorry if you got offended, that wasn't my intent. I suppose I'll go back to my rocking chair now.
 
Back in the day when I could write my name in the snow. And when Middle schools were called Jr. High Schools. And when Jr. and high schools had metal and wood shops (they don’t now in my state, to my knowledge). I made the below cannon on my first year out of grammar school. I can still remember all the great machines that Jr. High School had. We even did sand cast and poured aluminum, can you believe it! In looking back, I suppose there was a huge safety risk for kids at that age running the machines and all. But at the High School age maybe the kids had a little more savvy. Why did the shops all go away in our State? I have no idea, I think it’s a mistake. Everybody wants to be White Collar and buy import crap. I through ranting too.

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I too was raised in So Cal in a time when we went to Jr. HS where I took wood, metal and crafts shops. In crafts we made Plexiglas lamination, (ash tray, key fobs and stuff) and a sheet metal flower pot with rolled copper front/galv backing and soldered, polish and lacquered. In metal we sand cast a bust of Mickey Mouse amount other things and made a case hardened Steel chisel in a forge, we soldered a galvanize dust pan, etc. In wood shop we made a hand carved mahogany floral candy dish, a soap box derby race car (small) and some other toys. This was real learning of the trades and it's a problem that they don't offer it now for liability reasons because everyone is Law Suit happy.

I HS, I had auto shop for my first 3 periods. Enough time to really do a tune up on a car or change a starter or radiator or something. AND, we worked on our own cars!
 
OK, I have to say this. I have seen the comment, "Dying Breed" to many times now. "Dying -- maybe, to completely die off -- Never Happen". There will always be a need for them as long as something mechanical moves. I see the reason for no kids going to trade school starting in the home. Mom and Dad want their children to have clean jobs. This is a known fact in the schools. Sad state of affairs but fact. Then there are the kids themselves, instant gratification is a must. They don't want to start at the bottom, it's all or nothing.

I am a third generation Machinist. Two of my Sons and one Daughter are forth generation Machinists. This was their choice. As far as I am concerned, they chose well. The school system tried to talk them out of it, the kids refused to listen. This doesn't sound like dying to me. There were five girls in the system with my Daughter, they all graduated.

Yes I agree there are many locations where machining is no longer as important as it was, but it is not totally gone.

Almost every job shop I visit now has at least one CNC machine, but no manual machines were phased out. They are still there and still used every day.

I guess I've said enough here and I hope it made some sense to you. Thank you for listening.

"Billy G"
 
As a lifelong fully employed citizen and working member of a federally recognized tribe, what exactly do you mean by "...Indian Chiefs"?
Kevin

I expect that he means managers. As in "too many chieftains, not enough Scots."
 
I meant to offend no one by my comment about Indian chiefs. It is a term I've heard in my area of the country all my life. There is nothing derogatory about it. It simply means those of seemingly importance. A high rank in society if you will. I'm sorry if you got offended, that wasn't my intent. I suppose I'll go back to my rocking chair now.

Gentlemen please, the poster of the comment about this has already explained his meaning. He stated he meant nothing offensive with it. Let's let it go at that.

"Billy G"
 
Gday all,
Perhaps I can add something to this conversation as I too am an ex high school shop teacher as you guys on the American side of the pond would term it. I have also many years as a trade college technical instructor. Sure! It is an Australian perspective but there well may be some parallels for the situation America.

In my humble opinion there are a couple of reasons behind the decline in the trade training of young people in apprenticeships.

These causes have largely gone unnoticed and ignored by our industry leaders, most trade educators and of course politicians.

Caliber and Educational background.
Firstly is the caliber of the training candidates.Once upon a time a certain group of students went from year 12 to university and the rest went from year 10 into labor and trades related work. The students who went to the trades while not university material in general had a good grounding and schools generally produced good workers for the trades.

From the mid eighties the push was to send more and more students to university has resulted in the upper level of students who would have left at yr 10 to become trades people then continuing on to YR 12 with the view to going to university. The group that formerly may have been relegated to other than trades apprenticeship jobs,the laborers ( nothing wrong with laborers mind you,but that was all that was available due to this groups educational standard)

Due to the those who would have been good electricians, plumbers and machinists, etc. then going to university - those kids who took their place as potential tradesmen were in general the ones who would have formerly been the laborers and had a educational abilities were far less than the student group they subsequently replaced.

Falling Educational Standards
The educational system had been dumbed down from the nineties onwards. The result was that the groups then being trained as pre apprenticeship or apprenticeship candidates could then pass a low level exam but could not effectively read and understand an instruction sheet ,a bill of materials ,specification sheets or add up a simple column of figures without a calculator . Education has tried to hide the numbers of students who don't have adequate literacy and numeracy to perform well in the world outside of school.
The apprenticeship process has been degraded, in that the time taken to train an apprentice has been reduced and its theoretically possible to gain tradesman status in three years instead of .Students have been signed off on particular training modules by a single assessment of that particular skill. Real competency is the ability to perform to a set standard not once but time and again.Add to that a good percentage of school teacher /trainer/ instructor experience has only been in university teacher training- ie - a week in arc welding bay, and a week on the lathes and mill and so on. Some one with twenty years trade experience behind them can forsee and prevent an accident or a failure. University trained teachers with almost no experience cannot do this., but unfortunately they are the in majority of Australian school trade training teachers. Students go from school to trade colleges where long term trade based but degreed teachers have been substituted with the lesser paid tradesman who have 12 weeks assessment training behind them.

Text materials for the courses where simplified to an unrealistic level to simply allow those students of low educational ability to pass. It has got down to tick and flick. This has flowed out into safety training for (certificates in the trade such as Induction training,working at heights and confined spaces) where tick and flick courses are conducted to satisfy legal,insurance and operational needs.Trust me ,it goes on , I have been there.

Industry Complaints
Industry complaints about the quality of pre trade and trade students simply not listed to by govt and Educational Authorities.
I have been present in many industrial shops local to where I live and have listened to employer complaints about (ex school student) employees who can't read, can't write , can't spell,can't think for themselves and have poor attitude and time keeping..Schools can only teach if the basic ability is there and that is fostered by the student attitude which is something that mostly comes from home. If not supported from home its near impossible to give a students a good attitude if good attitude is not also supported by MUM and DAD and sadly in many cases it is not. Employers whom I speak to are tending to reduce the number of apprentice intake each year and perform a fairly thorough interview and selection progress.Even this does not help if potential apprentices are already signed off in modules ( at school) they have no hope of being competent at on the shop floor. I have seen many examples out in industry of indentured tradespeople unable to perform to a basic level.

Technology and Society
Technology has had a profound effect on students. Due to such advancements such as the cell phone they are unable to understand the basics of personal communication . In the pre cell phone times we could face each other immediately detect if what we said had an effect on the person we were addressing.We got a smile , a poker face or a scowl or a punch on the nose dependent upon what was being said.
None of this is detectable on a cell phone and these young people have lost much of the art of reading another persons emotions as they talk face to face with others. Society accepts the cell phone and the negatives that have come with it. The lack of understanding of personal interaction has an affect on the shop floor. Also excessive cell phone use in work hours robs the employer of production time which he is paying for.

Of course there have been exceptions ,but I am only conveying what I have seen in a general sense.

Some of you may see similar things in your country.

Oz
 
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I meant to offend no one by my comment about Indian chiefs. It is a term I've heard in my area of the country all my life. There is nothing derogatory about it. It simply means those of seemingly importance. A high rank in society if you will. I'm sorry if you got offended, that wasn't my intent. I suppose I'll go back to my rocking chair now.
i was not trying to stir a pot. i thank you for the information and accept my apology for setting you back on your heels.

i have probably been reading too much Indian Country news lately and a little sensitive to things.

they still have vo-tech in oklahoma, i had not heard of teaching machinists though. they started vo-tech here in the late 70s and turned out electricians, heating and a/c, carpenters, printers and beauticians.

it is an odd thing in our society that a skilled craftsman is devalued but a manager is exalted. most anyyone can be a manager but few can take a block of steel or wood and make something useful. if we compensated on skill and not the ability to legally remove money from many to a few, i think it would be a better world.
 
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