Trials and tribulations of insert decoding

[GunsOfNavarone]

I'm not gonna lie, of all the mill/lathe knowledge I am slowly learning, insert decoding just IS NOT coming together for me. I have done times of searching, a lot of chart scanning, sat on the couch with a caliper measuring and cross referencing....but yeah, I'm not going to lie, this is NOT coming together for me.
I have talked to other newbs, this isn't uncommon. I will say it is more complicated than it needs to be and that there are ANSI and ISO, it makes it even more challenging. Here's my story, names have been changed to protect the innocent.....
I bought my lathe about 2 years ago, with good recommendations, I immediately changed to an AXA QCTP. I bought the Accusize 3/8" tool holders and in this time, I have needed to change the inserts. I want better quality inserts than the originals and I do mainly stainless. The C shaped insert tool some education, but was able to get a few different Kennametals. Done. This W shaped one has become comical in trying to replace it. I have been using it for 2 years and that has been through the earliest learning stages where uber light passes was about all I did, now I have learned that can actually over heat the tool...but I'll try to keep this in topic and wrap it up.
My first (extremely under thought through) purchase was WNMG inserts. Way wrong. My tool holder is swgcr06-2j and Accusize says WCMT 21.52 inserts. Went to ebay and found some really good ones,got them....too small. The sellers said you need WCMT 32.52 he did a swap with some addition cash and I got some SECO for stainless. Too big. I'll say there are more options in the ANSI name than the ISO, but they should be one and the same....NO?
I need help with this tool holder. Good, bad or indifferent, I'm not going back to ACCUSIZE. Maybe it's just pricip

 

[Liljoebrshooter]

The best information I have found and made sense is carbide depot. Click top right, three lines, then technical resources.
Then about half way down that page it will list several items. Insert designation chart is on the right. It shows what each number and letter means.
In the same list is the cross reference for ISO also.
They also show the same information for tool holders and boring bars.
If you have already looked at it, sorry about being late.

Joe Hynes

 

[GunsOfNavarone]

Thanks Joe. I have printed that out (a long time ago) along with Mitsubishi 's and a couple others. I have still ordered the wrong thing and even with a professional info, the wrong thing. I'm outta ideas to be honest. I'll measure it all up again (7th time?) And post my results here. It seems unless I purchase Accusize's inserts (that I don't want) I'm up a creek. Something isn't jiving for some reason.

 

[gerritv]

Accusize catalog says the insert is WCMT2.52, e.g. https://www.prolinemax.com/10-PC-WC...able-Turning-Tool-Bit-Chipbreaker_p_2075.html Do those dimensions jive with what is in your holder?

 

[GunsOfNavarone]

So, i can confirm it is wcmt. Beyond that, I feel like it's all a guess/round to the closest option.
Inscribed circle. It's not asking for size of hope but rather the biggest imaginary circle that would fit within insert? If so, the IC is 7.6mm or .299" that does relate to a 1.5, or a 2 or a 2.5
It can't be that much of a rough guess system. This is the 1st issue.

 

[mksj]

Basically that particular holder uses a weird insert somewhat unique to that holder, the more common insert would be the WNMG (negative rake) as opposed to WCMT (neutral rake) insert. It is also a screw insert as opposed to the clamp style for the WNMG and the smallest size is 3/8" inscribed circle, the WCMT would be a 1/4". So it does not look like you have many other options for that particular holder. ANSI and ISO are interchangeable, just a different measurement system, ANSI being more archaic. It looks like the Accusize insert spece'd is a unique oddball, doesn't seem to follow the proper nomenclature. A standard would be WMT or WCGT 040204 21.51 Carbide Inserts with a 6.35mm inscribed circle, so Accusize seems to have their own flavor insert (it may be an 05 size, 7.94mm inscribed circle) is the reason you cannot find any better replacements. Depending on your size machine, for an AXA you might try 1/2" set of holders that use some more commonly available inserts. I have attached the more common ones that I use sized for a BXA holder, each holder specifies the type and size insert to uses. Then I look up the manufactures insert specifications for the material I will be using them on. Some of these are shown in the attached document. On a smaller lathe you probably want to stick with neutral or positive rake holders unless turning softer materials.

ISO Inserts,

 

[GunsOfNavarone]

Basically that particular holder uses a weird insert somewhat unique to that holder, the more common insert would be the WNMG (negative rake) as opposed to WCMT (neutral rake) insert. It is also a screw insert as opposed to the clamp style for the WNMG and the smallest size is 3/8" inscribed circle, the WCMT would be a 1/4". So it does not look like you have many any other options for that particular holder. ANSI and ISO are interchangeable, just a different measurement system, ANSI being more archaic. It looks like the Accusize insert spece'd is a unique oddball, doesn't seem to follow the proper nomenclature. A standard would be WMT or WCGT 040204 21.51 Carbide Inserts with a 6.35mm inscribed circle, so Accusize seems to have their own flavor insert (it may be an 05 size, 7.94mm inscribed circle) is the reason you cannot find any better replacements. Depending on your size machine, for an AXA you might try 1/2" set of holders that use some more commonly available inserts. I have attached the more common ones that I use sized for a BXA holder, each holder specifies the type and size insert to uses. Then I look up the manufactures insert specifications for the material I will be using them on. Some of these are shown in the attached document. On a smaller lathe you probably want to stick with neutral or positive rake holders unless turning softer materials.

ISO Inserts,
View attachment 310841

THANK YOU! Yes, it seems to be VERY limited. I had posed that question long ago, can I go to a larger holder that will take a insert that is more common with more options. It seems If I go to a 1/2" holder, i will be above center of work piece. I may just go this route and mill down the bottom side of holder, or do I go with an XL AXA tool holder and mill it down even more. I understand my mill doesn't have the power to do negative take inserts, but there are probably options in positive take in the 1/2 or 5/8" holders? I am not happy with my option in the trigon 3 /8" options so. ....

 

[mksj]

AXA are designed to take 1/2" tooling in their holders, I would stick with 1/2" unless you have a small lathe. You can mill the holders and/or use spacers, but the outer surfaces of the holders are hardened (at least mine), so a bit difficult to mill (I use carbide end mills). You should be able to gauge off your 3/8" insert holders as to if you can lower the holder an additional 1/8". You adjust the height of the tooling holder so the insert cutting edge is on center. Typically an oversized holder is taller as opposed to thinner on the bottom.

https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/250-101/

https://www.precisionmatthews.com/shop/250-101-xl/

If you have a 12" lathe you may be able to fit 5/8" oversized holders where there are more insert options, smaller machine stick with 1/2" which should still should be able to use 3/8" IC inserts. On general machining I primarily use the CCMT/CCGT type inserts, WNMG I use in aluminum with ground edge inserts, but I do not recommend negative rake for smaller lathes. The other common styles are listed in the document provided, but there are many types. The nomenclature is like learning a new language, but once you get the gist of the names, sizing and coating it makes a lot more sense. I have certain inserts manufactures/coatings that I use, they work well for my application. In an industrial setting you are trying to achieve maximum production rate and insert longevity, so a totally different set of priorities and much larger/heavier machinery.

 

[Mitch Alsup]

AXA are designed to take 1/2" tooling in their holders,<snip>

If you have a 12" lathe you may be able to fit 5/8" oversized holders where there are more insert options, <snip>

All of my AXA holders take 5/8 or 16mm tool holders.

 

[darkzero]

All of my AXA holders take 5/8 or 16mm tool holders.

The holders you purchased may but that is not the original Aloris standard. Aloris standard is 1/2" for AXA, 5/8" for oversize. 5/8" is standard for BXA & 3/4" for oversized.

Newer Dorian holders jump up 2 sizes for their oversized holders, 3/4" for AXA & 1" for BXA. But just because you can fit the larger tools in one of these extreme oversized tool holders doesn't mean they will work with your lathe.